Right to Privacy?

[sterckxe]

Wanted to chime in quickly before the lock : I'm in 100% agreement with everything written by Mr Jim D Burns in this thread

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[DSWargamer]

A 'right' is only worth as much as you are willing to pay to keep it.

As I see it, and after having watched too many news items connected to too many modern issues, too many people are simply too disinterested in sacrificing their personal comfort for anything they can't really put a finger on.

That, and I have yet to see anyone ever object to anything until it impacts their wallets. The moment something actually costs them anything, they couldn't care less. It doesn't even matter whether the something is worth anything in the long term. The average North American has no interest in anything any further in the future than their next pay check. The day will come when the US again votes, and the sad truth is the person they vote in, will be using this against the voting public.

If your problem can't be solved in under 4 years, there's no point in mentioning it, no one is going to pay to have it fixed.

[Neilster]

The moment something actually costs them anything, they couldn't care less.

Sorry? Don't you mean they really care? In that case it should be ..."they couldn't care more."

Is this the inverse of the mysterious way Americans say "I could care less", when they really mean "I couldn't care less"?

Cheers, Neilster

[wings7]

All you gentlemen (and ladies too) have made some good points and not so good points on the Right to Privacy issue. Talking about it is very important and after all the discussion we need good, honest and selfless people to get involved to change things for the better...being a public servant is something we all the have the freedom to do.

Patrick

[DSWargamer]

No actually I used the expression correctly (really irks me when someone mangles famous expressions routinely).

Everyone is all for a cause, right till the moment they have to pay for it.

Two common examples, all the comments directed at our fav to hate Walmart, until it comes to actually paying more to buy made in North America, then suddenly it's back to Walmart for lowest price possible and who cares what's involved.

Or oil, everyone hates being subservient to the Middle East, but why do we continually buckle under at the pump? Because no one wants to pay a penny more than forced to. It is not really important to anyone the moment it costs them something.

Everyone loves to scream and rant about the evils of China, but, we sure like to buy our junk from them, because they can take our raw resources and make it into our things and ship it to us for less than we can do it all from right here by out own people.

The average North American consumer, well the words I'd like to use are extremely offensive.

Privacy, the average person gladly sells their privacy for a song. I don't think the average joe nobody even has the right to whine any more.

Privacy would be simple. Get rid of your computer, ditch your cell phone, cut up your credit cards, cancel anything that in any way has you connected to the world's communication net. Go back to paper currency paid for in person, and enjoy hobbies that are in no way connected to the internet.

Privacy was easy when I was young. All I had to do was close the door to my home.

[histgamer]

I know it's not your point DSW but some of those sterotypes are wrong.

Many things in Walmart are made in China, not nearly all. The file cabinate I just purchased there was made in the USA with American Made steal in it.

China makes a lot of things but not nearly all. The USA is STILL the 2nd largest manufacture in the world and only lost the title of #1 in 2011 or 2012 I can't remember which.

Many things made in China are really not made there, they don't take our resources per say (for some goods anyway). A perfect example is the iPhone. Which at least until the last version had it's LCD screen and it's CPU made by Samsung in Texas those parts are BY FAR the most expensive and valuable parts of the iPhone, the screen and CPU would be made in the USA and then shipped to China where they were assembled and shipped back but the vast majority of the value of the phone was actually still made in the USA.

US Steal production in 2012 while now about 70% of it's peak in the 1960s is still routinely producing the same tonnage as it was in the mid 1970s. The jobs have not gone overseas nearly as much as they have been eliminated through automation.

Oil: China is Saudi Arabia's #1 consumer, the VAST majority of US oil actually comes from Canada and what doesn't come from there comes from Mexico. In fact my friends dad works for a company which imports oil from Canada, blends it into high grade lubricants and then ships it all over the world, including exporting a huge portion of it to China and Europe.

What I think all of what I am saying gets at is more to what I think you're underlying point is, the world is truly global in a way we've never seen. Made in the USA or China or whatever often has lost its meaning as the parts of the assembled product originate everywhere, the same can be said about privacy. When you are in such an interconnected web there is no such thing as domestic privacy because the companies you're purchasing from, and interacting with are all over the globe. Governments all over the world have very feasible and relatively easy means of obtaining information on pretty much anyone anywhere.

[Neilster]

The moment something actually costs them anything, they couldn't care less.

No actually I used the expression correctly (really irks me when someone mangles famous expressions routinely).

DSWargamer, If someone couldn't care less, they care incredibly little about something, when you actually mean they care a lot.

Cheers, Neilster

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Neilster

The moment something actually costs them anything, they couldn't care less.

No actually I used the expression correctly (really irks me when someone mangles famous expressions routinely).

DSWargamer, If someone couldn't care less, they care incredibly little about something, when you actually mean they care a lot.

Cheers, Neilster

I think he ment that they care a lot about it but if it costs money then they do not bother to pay up hence they couldn't care less if it is a cost.

[Neilster]

Ok.

Cheers, Neilster

[Gilmer]

I have to agree with Jim D. Burns. We have people lying every day in front of Congress. I know Congress lies all the time, too, but that is not an excuse to lie about something. When I'm told our phone calls aren't being monitored or every hurdle is carefully used to make sure the technology is not being used incorrectly, then we get a report not a month later saying exactly the opposite is true, I have to wonder what the hell is going on.

To me this isn't politics. This is our lives we are talking about. My cousin and I talk all the time about how is it all worth it, or would our lives be better if we opened a bar on a beach somewhere like in the Caribbean.

[Josh]

So I do wonder how does Googles Glass fit into this discussion?
 

 
 It's being tested all around the globe now, I even saw a surgeon using it while doing surgery. Where does all the info this glass receives go to? The Google cloud?

[SuluSea]

Jim D. Burns is on the mark here!

You'd figure with all this spying the feds would be able to nab the tsarnaev brothers before they attacked. Heck , they were even warned by a foriegn govenment and still fumbled.

[histgamer]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Jim D. Burns is on the mark here!

You'd figure with all this spying the feds would be able to nab the tsarnaev brothers before they attacked. Heck , they were even warned by a foriegn govenment and still fumbled.

Having all the info and knowing how to use it are two very different things.

Imagine you have all the info on every single human in the country, any digital finger print they might have even non digital things, now you need to find one small file amongst the trillions of gigabytes of info you have. Sure filters and programs can narrow things down but I'm going to guess they simply don't know how to use the huge amount of info they have.

Further branches of government tend not to communicate well with each other so if the NSA or DHS for example have all the info they need I find it very unlikely they will be willing to share that info with local police or other organizations. That's why most local law enforcement still need traditional warrants and the like for MOST crimes, the DHS or NSA simply wont share the info they have, heck its unlikely local or even federal branches know everything another department might have on you.

That's my totally ignorant assumption on the matter. I think it's clear local law enforcement at the very least doesn't have access to these data mining operations, doesn't mean its right or constitutional but it also means that just because they have all this info doesn't mean they have anyway to use it. Unless you become high profile enough for them to decide to use it of course, which there'in lies the crux of the problem, the potential for abuse exists and the constitutional rights people are granted no longer protect them from the hypothetical possibility of abuse, citizens now rely upon either the incompetence,indifference or goodwill of various government organizations when it comes to their privacy rights.

[Jim D Burns]

Constitutional protections are supposed to be obeyed no matter what by all levels of government and law enforcement and that means obeyed to the determent of law enforcement if necessary. Local or federal makes no difference they are all bound by law and are criminals if they intentionally disregard or circumvent constitutional protections.

There will always be a good reason someone can point out to try and bend or break protections. The problem is once you allow them to be bent or broken you have a precedent and that means it is ok to bend or break protections from then on. You cannot afford to let something like this go unchallenged for any reason. It will be the beginning of the end for your privacy rights. And if one right can be taken all rights can.

Once precedent is set then no longer will a case come before the court just to be thrown out for the simple reason it violates constitutional rights. No, from then on every single case will get a chance to make its case, hence reasons can be found to legally break constitutional protections and as the years move on more and more reasons will gain legal legitimacy before the courts. That means it will become legal to violate someone’s constitutionally protected rights and then you are no longer free nor protected.

Try and forget which side of the political isle you are on if you can and think about this. Imagine the other side stacks the supreme court with seven or eight judges and brings every ‘issue’ it has before the court and overturns constitutional protections to favor their own agendas. Right now that can’t happen as all constitutional rights are protected and not supposed to be broken no matter what. Break just one right once in a court of law and it’s all over.

This current government has no regard at all for constitutional protections. The fact they didn’t even bother to attempt to protect Americans privacy proves it. If the people don’t rise up as one against this it won’t be long before someone points out people don’t care and they take it to court to break the right in favor of whatever law enforcement emergency you want to use at the time.

NOTHING should ever trump our rights, because the government is nothing more than a system of control and it is always actively seeking to expand its power and control no matter who is in charge.

Jim

[histgamer]

Not sure who you're arguing with. You seemed to miss my point, I was never saying it's ok merely explaining why despite all the information the various departments have it does not represent the full capaiblity but rather the potential for misuse.

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Constitutional protections are supposed to be obeyed no matter what by all levels of government and law enforcement and that means obeyed to the determent of law enforcement if necessary. Local or federal makes no difference they are all bound by law and are criminals if they intentionally disregard or circumvent constitutional protections.

There will always be a good reason someone can point out to try and bend or break protections. The problem is once you allow them to be bent or broken you have a precedent and that means it is ok to bend or break protections from then on. You cannot afford to let something like this go unchallenged for any reason. It will be the beginning of the end for your privacy rights. And if one right can be taken all rights can.

Once precedent is set then no longer will a case come before the court just to be thrown out for the simple reason it violates constitutional rights. No, from then on every single case will get a chance to make its case, hence reasons can be found to legally break constitutional protections and as the years move on more and more reasons will gain legal legitimacy before the courts. That means it will become legal to violate someone’s constitutionally protected rights and then you are no longer free nor protected.

Try and forget which side of the political isle you are on if you can and think about this. Imagine the other side stacks the supreme court with seven or eight judges and brings every ‘issue’ it has before the court and overturns constitutional protections to favor their own agendas. Right now that can’t happen as all constitutional rights are protected and not supposed to be broken no matter what. Break just one right once in a court of law and it’s all over.

This current government has no regard at all for constitutional protections. The fact they didn’t even bother to attempt to protect Americans privacy proves it. If the people don’t rise up as one against this it won’t be long before someone points out people don’t care and they take it to court to break the right in favor of whatever law enforcement emergency you want to use at the time.

NOTHING should ever trump our rights, because the government is nothing more than a system of control and it is always actively seeking to expand its power and control no matter who is in charge.

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

merely explaining why despite all the information the various departments have

Right, but the tragedy here is the fact they already have the info and are clamoring for the right to gather even more.

They are building a huge secret tech center somewhere in the Midwest right now (Utah maybe, I forget. But it is HUGE), so I have no doubt they will have the ability to misuse it very soon. The fact they are building it already before any vetting of these issues has taken place on the public stage should tell you they also have the intent to misuse it.

Another overlooked fact that really makes me question just what the hell is really going on is the fact the NSA ordered 6 billion rounds of ammo and has already taken delivery on almost 2 billion rounds. What the hell does an agency whose jurisdiction falls solely within the borders of the US need enough rounds to kill almost every human on the planet for?

Edit: whoops sorry got the numbers wrong. It was the DHS not the NSA and 1.6 billion rounds of ammo not 6 billion. Sorry the old grey matter isn’t what it used to be. That’s still enough ammo to keep the Iraq war going for 20+ years at its highest ammo expenditure rates and it was for an agency whose jurisdiction falls within the US only.

Jim

[histgamer]

Most people I see quoting those numbers think it's for some genocidal purpose, I think the ammo is more likely an attempt by the Obama administration to keep civilian ammo prices high and effect some form of limited gun control through supply and demand manipulation without actual legislation. Of course who knows the real reason.

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

merely explaining why despite all the information the various departments have

Right, but the tragedy here is the fact they already have the info and are clamoring for the right to gather even more.

They are building a huge secret tech center somewhere in the Midwest right now (Utah maybe, I forget. But it is HUGE), so I have no doubt they will have the ability to misuse it very soon. The fact they are building it already before any vetting of these issues has taken place on the public stage should tell you they also have the intent to misuse it.

Another overlooked fact that really makes me question just what the hell is really going on is the fact the NSA ordered 6 billion rounds of ammo and has already taken delivery on almost 2 billion rounds. What the hell does an agency whose jurisdiction falls solely within the borders of the US need enough rounds to kill almost every human on the planet for?

Edit: whoops sorry got the numbers wrong. It was the DHS not the NSA and 1.6 billion rounds of ammo not 6 billion. Sorry the old grey matter isn’t what it used to be. That’s still enough ammo to keep the Iraq war going for 20+ years at its highest ammo expenditure rates and it was for an agency whose jurisdiction falls within the US only.

Jim

[Orm]

Peggy Noonan wrote this article in the Wall Street Journal about how surveillance affect us. I found it interesting.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... html?dsk=y

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Most people I see quoting those numbers think it's for some genocidal purpose

Genocide no, but if you look at it in conjunction with the recent powers given to the president in the National Defense Authorization Act in 2012, he now has congressionally approved legal authority to deploy Federal troops on US soil (say bye bye to Posse Comitatus) and can detain US citizens as terrorists for an indefinite period of time.

All that has to occur is some ‘incident’ that allows him to then declare a certain group as terrorists and suddenly he has the legal power and rights to arrest and detain millions of Americans without trial or recourse. This isn’t Hyperbole, the law has been passed and is already on the books. Suddenly the fact the US government is stockpiling billions of rounds of ammunition in an agency focused within the borders of the United States looks a lot darker to me.

I should add I’m not trying to just Obama bash here. These powers are there for anyone to use who takes the seat of office. So if he doesn’t create an incident maybe the next guy or the guy 20 years from today will. This is dangerous stuff and permanent stuff and has nothing to do with left/right politics.

Jim

[Qwixt]

The Presidency has gradually gained more and more power over the years. The press is impotent these days, and more focused on making money and 24 hour news cycle than investigative reporting. Even when good reporting is done, it's lost in the landslide of usual crap.

Did you hear about the case where keeping silent was used against the accused? Salinas v. Texas. Basically, the police did not read him his rights, and when he failed to answer a question, it was used in court.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insider/201 ... tigations/


This country has been evolving in bad ways for quite some time now.