Sub Lifeguard Duty

dascateer · Post by **dascateer** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:26 pm

Has there been any thought to allowing subs to be used in a lifeguard capacity for airstrikes? Giving them a special mission and placing them in an enemy base hex during airstrikes, and allowing them to "rescue" a percentage of lost aircrew would be historically accurate and allow a player to better preserve seasoned and experienced aircrew. Or would this be an unnecessary complication to gameplay? Any thoughts?

derwho · Post by **derwho** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:33 pm

Has there been any thought to allowing subs to be used in a lifeguard capacity for airstrikes? Giving them a special mission and placing them in an enemy base hex during airstrikes, and allowing them to "rescue" a percentage of lost aircrew would be historically accurate and allow a player to better preserve seasoned and experienced aircrew. Or would this be an unnecessary complication to gameplay? Any thoughts?

I've pondered the same thing but you managed to post this before I got far enough to formulate my thoughts into the form of a message.

I have no idea on how many pilots ware actually rescued this way. Anyone with some stats?

I must ask: does this have anything to do with the catastrophic Air-To-Air losses you are currently enduring in our game? ;D

I guess I must be hurting you more than I thought..

dascateer · Post by **dascateer** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:52 pm

My, my. Aren't we cocksure. Actually no, it does not. And I seem to recall your losses being in the 40+ range for that most recent engagement as well (do your Oscars count as real air-to-air kills? Just curious.) Actually the question comes on the heels of seeing a picture of CDR Dick O'Kane from USS Tang posing with a large number of rescued aviators on the deck of his sub. Know this tactic was used to good effect on several occassions and thought it might be incorperated into the game to enhance realism, although I do not know if historically much of an overall operational impact was made. Thought it might be a nice feature for the game.

Veer · Post by **Veer** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:39 pm

I would venture to guess that in UV subs are actually involved is 'rescuing' enemy pilots.
I mean it is a bit odd when fighters flying CAP over your own task force bail out and are CAPTURED. Dosn't seem to be any other explenation for it....

derwho · Post by **derwho** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:45 pm

Not being cocksure, just teasing you. Oscars are crappy and only count for 1/4 of a kill.

This brings me into another thought concerning UV and pilots. I have the gut feeling that a high number of pilots get killed when defending a base with LR-CAP. In my opinion (not based on any historical fact) a larger proportion of pilots should be able to bail out - and, a pilot with EXP 90 should be able to make a successfull eject and landing with a much more higher propability than a EXP 60 fellah.

For eg. Hans-Erich Rudel bailed out successfully from his Stuka (I've got his book at home, this is unchecked) something like 30 times. Ok, this is over land and a different story but gives perspective. Also, I have no clue how easy or impossible it was to bail out from a Zero or Oscar. Anyone with a firm grasp on the subject?

Quick bits on Rudel:

During his career, Rudel flew over 2530 (around 400 of his sorties were flown in a Focke-Wulf 190 fighter plane during which he was credit with 11 air victories) missions and destroyed around 150 various artillery pieces, 519 tanks, around 1000 various vehicles, 70 landing crafts, 2 Lavochkin La-3 fighters, Il-2 Stormovik and sunk Battleship "Marat", 2 Cruisers and a Destroyer.

More:

http://pub37.ezboard.com/ffightercommun ... D=77.topic

Veer · Post by **Veer** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:46 pm

Originally posted by drwho

During his career, Rudel flew over 2530 (around 400 of his sorties were flown in a Focke-Wulf 190 fighter plane during which he was credit with 11 air victories) missions and destroyed around 150 various artillery pieces, 519 tanks, around 1000 various vehicles, 70 landing crafts, 2 Lavochkin La-3 fighters, Il-2 Stormovik and sunk Battleship "Marat", 2 Cruisers and a Destroyer.

Talk about one man army. Ofcourse if he was in UV, I would lose him on the third day of the campaign!:)

bradfordkay · Post by **bradfordkay** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:13 pm

I believe that last spring during the final run up to UVs release the guys from 2by3 said that submarine and coastwatcher pilot rescue was modelled in that the US pilots have a greater chance of returning to combat after being shot down away from base than do the Japanese (the US pilot recovery program was much better in both planning and execution).

Feinder · Post by **Feinder** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 11:21 pm

"The success of this remarkable submarine effort can best be measured by the fact that 520 aviators were rescued by 87 submarines patrolling in excess of 3200 submarine-days on lifeguard station. But the statistics are too laconic. Think of the 520 as American airmen. Good lads, who were saved."

Check out these web pages on the Submarine Lifeguard League, it has stories and stats. Interesting stuff.

-F-

derwho · Post by **derwho** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:09 pm

This has nothing to do with the subject at hand but because this was discussed in the thread I'd like to add it here.

--[CLiP]--
Still, with few other resources, the Guadalcanal forces had no choice but to use what they had. The Army continued to ferry P-400s to Guadalcanal in spite of poor performance, and the Airacobra eventually found a niche as a ground-attack platform,
supplementing the Marine’s thin artillery. Moreover, the Wildcats and Airacobras teamed to cover their mutual weaknesses. The P-400s would act as bait for incoming Zeros, and once the Japanese committed to the attack, Wildcats would dive out of the sun and close the trap. Such tactical innovations achieved a significant operational effect, eroding the general numerical superiority the Japanese enjoyed and played to the
American advantages in sturdiness of construction and proximity to home base. More than half of the American pilots shot down returned to combat. Fewer than 10 percent of
the Japanese pilots were so lucky, a fact that came into play as the conflict extended. Thus, the Japanese failure to squelch the offensive early was proving costly.
--[CLiP]--

Extract from:

https://research.maxwell.af.mil/papers/ ... 98-061.pdf

My point is:

When defending a airfield with ones own CAP in UV the proportion of pilots who make a successfull eject from a downed aircraft is unhistorical.