This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!
So if you were the Germans, which fighter would you have gone with in 1938?
The question is always: engines and industry flexibility to build another fighter. It is the engine power that dictate everything else - Bf110 stopped to make sense after power increased so much for single engine planes - they could take off with more fuel and guns while a fighter with 850hp could not get much more than 2x 12.7mm machine gun without killing its performance too much, so to have an heavy gun pack there was need of 2 engines in 1930's. Without knowing the outlook that Germans had about future engines it is difficult to say, i agree that it seems the bf-109 was the best for Hitler political proposes at time since it would have been the faster to have been fielded. But they should have started a real replacement program at the time to be fielded in 1941-42.
The Spitfire was bar none the best airframe design available in Europe per-war
I agree it was the best airframe for a upgradeable fighter. It was a design that was still competitive in 1944
So if you were the Germans, which fighter would you have gone with in 1938?
The question is always: engines and industry flexibility to build another fighter. It is the engine power that dictate everything else - Bf110 stopped to make sense after power increased so much for single engine planes - they could take off with more fuel and guns while a fighter with 850hp could not get much more than 2x 12.7mm machine gun without killing its performance too much, so to have an heavy gun pack there was need of 2 engines in 1930's. Without knowing the outlook that Germans had about future engines it is difficult to say, i agree that it seems the bf-109 was the best for Hitler political proposes at time since it would have been the faster to have been fielded. But they should have started a real replacement program at the time to be fielded in 1941-42.
The Spitfire was bar none the best airframe design available in Europe per-war
I agree it was the best airframe for a upgradeable fighter. It was a design that was still competitive in 1944
Well, at the risk of sounding repetitive and of bashing my favorite plane ever, AE has demonstrated to me the limitations of the spit. As soon as I went on the offensive the short range of this aircraft has pretty much designated it to base defense. It is not very useful in game terms as it was not in the later half of the war in real life. I slathered in excitement waiting for the arrival of the 1945 version of the spit only to learn that it has much less range than the spit VIII and thus is not very helpful in my drive on Japan. I would rather still have the slower VIII model in production. With drop tanks, it was a bit more useful.
I know we are talking about different generations but when you consider the short range and small bomb load of the spit, you just can't compare it to the corsairs, thunderbolts, mustangs and even the tempest. The spit and 109 were just too one dimensional to call them great fighters.
interesting comments and questions. Let me add some additional info.
Re: Duraluminium and the production effort for the Me 109. Kosin states in his book that this was never documented in all papers which survived the war. In fact, more the opposite was true. Messerschmitts design called for maximum weight savings and lots of smaller parts, which made pre-production more complicated, and also almost no one in germany at this time had any idea about real mass production. They were sending technicans out to Ford and other US manufacturers to study the priciples of mass production instead! His theory is that the decision for the Me 109 was made very early, short after the first comparison flights, around March 1936, and that perhaps Udet himself, or Milch had made a sole decision. Many things in the third reich were decided just by the "Fuehrerprinzip", the sole leaders decision.
Re: Drop Tanks. They were introduced quite early on some models. The Bf 110 (2-engine heavy fighter, called "destroyer") go them in variant 110 B-1 already in July 1939. But interestingly enough he doesn´t put any focus on drop tanks at all in his descriptions. I assume that latest around 1941/1942 drop tanks were an option which could be installed. But the shift from offensive to defensive operations did make drop tanks much less important. The Luftwaffe had a huge network of airbases, from which planes could operate, and range was not a decisive factor. Instead much more focus was put on maximum ceiling, and speed, together with cannon armament. All this were crucial factor to help fighting against strategic bombers.
Re: Bf 110. A decision for a follow-up plane was made early, because the limitations of the 110 were foreseeable even at the time of it´s introduction. The first Me 210 flight took place in 1939, but it´s development was seriously torpedized by the fact that the plane initially was too short, and Messerschmitt refused to make it longer, because he had already installed production machinery worth more than 3 million reichsmark. It took 2 1/2 years to overcome this shortcoming, and the result (the Me 410) came too late to be of any influence.
Re: Follow-up developments for the Me 109. A lot of ideas were floating around to improve the 109. This included a V-tail, a nose-gear, a modified landing gear retraction system, but none of these made it into production. THe reason is simple: Each change would have seriously interrupted the production output of airframes, and Germany needed every single cell badly on the fronts. So improvements focussed on motors and armament instead.
With Hungary in the axis camp, germany had the second largest stores of bauxite in the world
(second only to US)
reasons for low production numbers early in the war
a) pilot training program was not productive enough,
large number of airframes with novice crews thought useless
b) production of other war materials (primarily land forces) was given priority
c) axis leadership did not want to "over-work" the german public,
the idea of a wartime economy may be bad for party support and morale
thus factories were often running 1 shift per day, and some resources
were even allocated to the civilian aviation industry
thus later in the war, fighter production was ramped up quickly
as there was a major slack in the german economic model
DESPITE the USAAF Fortress/Liberator campaign (not to mention the RAF night campaign)
that had crippling effects on the total output potential of the german economy
but in practice, output often increased since factories were being expanded faster
than they could be destroyed
"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf
Joking of course, as I know these games are not known for their diligent modeling of aircraft capabilities. But if anyone ever had a hanker to fly the Heinkel 100, on September 26 you will get your chance.
According to what I have read the majority of german aces had more respect for the Spitfire than the Mustang.
When Goering was inspecting JG-26 he asked Galland what he wanted he answered"A squadron of Spitfires".
Needless to say the Reichmarshall was not amused!
spitfire was conceived with fundamental logic in terms of what is a good fighter
1) speed --> so it was given good aerodynamics
2) maneuverability --> so it was given a large wing area
and to maximize these characteristics, weight was kept to a minimum
by using the best possible materials (or rather, the lack of poor materials)
spitfire's only minor fubar was the lack of a propeller-mounted cannon
20mm hispano in nose + 2 in the wings, would have been better than 2x20mm in wings, 4x.303 in wings
that turned out to be rather useless against FW-190
"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf
During the Battle of Britain, in a front line General Officer briefing on Luftwaffe tactics, Göring asked what his pilots needed to win the battle. Werner Mölders replied that he would like the Bf 109 to be fitted with more powerful engines. Galland replied: "I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my squadron." which left Göring speechless with rage.
So Galland prefer Spitfire during BoB. When Mustang coming to action, Galland already changed his opinion and prefer fast and well-protected planes like Me.262 and Fw.190 which had capability to fight on high alts. Agility Bf.109 used mostly for cover landing/take-off.
He.100 (in future) can be used for counter Mustangs but Germany cannot hold so much plane lines together.
According to what I have read the majority of german aces had more respect for the Spitfire than the Mustang.
When Goering was inspecting JG-26 he asked Galland what he wanted he answered"A squadron of Spitfires".
Needless to say the Reichmarshall was not amused!
You are taking this quote badly out of context and misleading the unwary.
Comparing the Spitfire to the FW-190 has limited relevance. Both were essentially short range interceptors and their various models met rarely throughout the war. The 190 must be judged against both its prey and its prey's escorts, primarily the P-51. The effective air superiority fighter of the Germans was the 109, and its main foe would be the P-47. There was a period in '42 when Spits and Focke-Wulfs fought in the skies over France, but that time passed, and the Spits mainly protected bases and such, not having the range to reach the enemy.
Well, at the risk of sounding repetitive and of bashing my favorite plane ever, AE has demonstrated to me the limitations of the spit.
I wasn't putting range in equation, at least not much.
late model Spitfire would be more challenging to fight against (more maneuverable and 20mm firepower)
Late model Spits were less maneuverable not more. They were much heavier.
You are taking this quote badly out of context and misleading the unwary.
Correct. Galland did say after war that that phrase came out of his mouth because he was really irritated by Luftwaffe not listening to the pilots requests. It was a on spot bluster, a provocation due to the irritation he was on at the moment.
You are taking this quote badly out of context and misleading the unwary.
Correct. Galland did say after war that that phrase came out of his mouth because he was really irritated by Luftwaffe not listening to the pilots requests. It was a on spot bluster, a provocation due to the irritation he was on at the moment..
yes very true and was in 1940 before the P51s time!
Tigercub
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life
Late model Spits were less maneuverable not more. They were much heavier.
late model spitfire for example mk 14 was more maneuverable than mustangs like P-51D - and slightly faster
mustangs in a short range, lightweight config would have been good too (P-51H)
always entertained how fighters like the Mig-1 and He-100 were super fast around 1940/1941
and yet fighter development was steered (by all sides) in making fighters not faster but fatter
for more range
when really any side that wanted an edge in performance (japanese at rabaul for example) could have made variants with a minimum of range, loitering with drop tanks, and using their superior performance to achieve a better exchange rate
"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf
Correct. Galland did say after war that that phrase came out of his mouth because he was really irritated by Luftwaffe not listening to the pilots requests. It was a on spot bluster, a provocation due to the irritation he was on at the moment.
Though he would have been correct.
Bf-109E was both slower and less maneuverable than the Spitfire I
only hope was to try and escape with a negative-G dive.
"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf
Correct. Galland did say after war that that phrase came out of his mouth because he was really irritated by Luftwaffe not listening to the pilots requests. It was a on spot bluster, a provocation due to the irritation he was on at the moment.
Though he would have been correct.
Bf-109E was both slower and less maneuverable than the Spitfire I
only hope was to try and escape with a negative-G div
I apologize, but I don't think you have ever read Galland's book First and Last or reviewed the loss ratios between 109s and Spitfires in the Battle of Britain. The 109E and Spit 1 were very balanced opponents, each with different strengths, and superior German tactics during that phase of the war led to a slightly favorable kill ratio for the 109 over the Spit. Galland was talking about the Spitfire's particular characteristics as being advantageous for an escort over the 109, not as a better aircraft at that point in the war. I think there is general consensus that the Spit Mk IV marked a clear tipping point in the technological advantage between the aircraft.
Again, I apologize, for you have stated you know quite a bit about aircraft design, but you seem a bit prone to oversimplification which can mislead those who are not as suspicious as I.
