Arnhem - How far away could those SS divisions have been?

[altipueri]

This is something of a what if - but perhaps some of you have modded or played a scenario where there was only one SS division near Arnhem - or perhaps 10 km away.

There are many wargames now that give quite realistic outcomes to historical setups perhaps some of you know some examples where this has been done.

Edit: reviewing the above the question is: "What needs to be different for an allied victory in Market Garden?

[Phoenix100]

Ah. Been working on that for many months. Seriously. From the Meuse to The Rhine is my favourite scenario in the game and I've been altering it incrementally for many months now, trying to work out the minimum realistic changes necessary to make an allied victory possible. Where I'm at at the moment is coup de main forces for all 4 main bridges (Arnhem Highway and Rail, Nijmegan Highway and Rail) plus SEPs much closer to the bridges (at least after day 1) - in Arnhem the main SEP in Osterbeek, with an additional smaller capacity SEP in Elden. In Nijmegan a SEP near Hengstdaal, sth of the highway bridge. Plus a little more airpower. Everything else untouched. It's at least possible to draw with it like that, but still difficult enough to get a draw, I've found. A win is probably possible if you're good (I'm not). So that's a lot more changes than you have in mind, Alti, and still (for crap me) only a draw really easily possible. I can upload the file, if anyone's interested in playing these experiments. I started with many more changes than these and have still found it hard, principally because of the supply situation, and I'm never (still) sure whether the supply modelling is what buggers me. I feel it should be possible to put airdrop SEPs near the bridges and maintain a reasonable supply to front line bridgehead troops like that (by placing SEPs inside projected bridgehead perimeters, in effect), but that proves impossible so far, because the supply always gets interdicted. If you place the SEPs too near the FLOT then the supply gets interdicted by enemy troops at the other side of the FLOT!!! Just by their proximity, it seems. Looking at photos of the terrain I really feel it shouldn't be happening. I feel this is badly modelled, and have suggested this here, mostly my suggestions landing on deaf ears. I wouldn't want 100% supply to exist in such situations, but I think a reasonable percentage should get through. It's even worse if you're trying to supply troops across the other side of bridges in a tight bridgehead - no supply gets across the bridges. From reading accounts of real battles, this doesn't seem realistic - at least, not if it's like that all the time. These supply issues make it very difficult (if not impossible) for the allies to win From the Meuse to the Rhine, I think. But I keep trying.

[altipueri]

Thanks for long reply Phoenix.

This is all pretty much in your back garden isn't it?

[Phoenix100]

Not far away. Two hour drive.

[Phoenix100]

Of course, there's also the victory points to consider. I mean - if you focus on what was really wanted by the allies and assign all victory points accordingly, then you get a very different pattern of points and targets to that in the stock scenario. Basically, you might give very high points to the two main highway bridges - I mean staggeringly high points - and then the rest to the essential bridges along the way. You might alter the Axis that way too. It closes down your options to scrape draws and wins if you do that (and is unrealistic in the sense that it implies more intel than they had), but it really does mean you reward the key goals (the two main bridges at Arnhem and Nijmegan, basically. Still very difficult though - if you do that, plus the changes I've made putting in CDM forces etc - due to the above mentioned supply difficulties. Supply was the main issue, I feel, not the more powerful Axis forces than had been predicted. Or those issues compliment each other, because it's not possible to do it in 3 days, or even 5 days, so you need to guarantee supply to airborne forces for longer than that. I've found that tough.

[Arjuna]

The issue of having front line enemy interdict the delivery of supplies is a difficult one to manage when the front lines are right on top of each other as they are in Arnhem. Historically, John Frost's Bn Gp that secured the northern end of the Arnhem road bridge only received the supplies delivered by the carriers that were despatched in the first hour. Thereafter that they got nothing. Similarly the rest of the 1st Abn around the goose egg at Hartenstein survived on foraging air dropped supplies that were within walking distance of their position and once the Germans surrounded them they got nothing save for those that actually dropped in their perimeter.

Once troops are engaged in close proximity to enemy troops vehicles don't pull up and unload. They drop off their supplies further back and the unit has to send back manpackers to bring the supplies forward. We already model that. But the capacity for this is extremely limited. I'll give you an idea. In the battles around Lae in Papua New Guinea in 1942/3 each of the Australian Bns had to devote one whole company to manpack duties just to bring the supplies to the front line and even then they were always short of everything.

The 1st Abn had precious few vehicles and most of these were lost within the first day of the battle. It wasn't pretty.

In my view Market Garden could have succeeded if they had committed to a double drop on Day 1 - ie one in the morning and one later before dusk. This was doable but they chose not do it as it meant diverting precious transports away from resupply duties. They also need to have dropped closer and on both sides of the river. With enough troops to hold a front line you can secure your resupply. Without it you are doomed. I would have also dropped the 101st on the island in between the 1st Abn and the 82nd. That way you would have had a continuous airborne zone (from Arnhem to Grave) into which supplies could be dropped with relative safety. This was not without risk. It would rely on 30th Corps punching through Eindhoven on its own. But I reckon this was less risk than the historical plan.

[Phoenix100]

Interesting thoughts, Dave. So, if I'm modding it along your lines, where would you suggest I put the SEPs for the airborne troops in order to be able to secure supplies. Assume I drop closer to Arnhem and Nijmegan, on both sides of the bridges, with coup de main forces etc, assume I do the full drop on day 1, as suggested - where should the main SEP for 1st Airborne go, do you think? And where for the 82nd? My problem, as I said above, has been that even if I place SEPs nearer to the bridges, so near that I can make a perimeter around the SEP and the corresponding bridge and bridgehead forces (but not silly near - I'm talking 3 kilometres back, say), the supply to the bridgehead forces is STILL interdicted by the proximity of the enemy at the other side of the FLOT. I haven't actually been able to do, in other words, what you suggest above, when you say - With enough troops to hold a front line you can secure your resupply. - that just hasn't worked, so far (for me). Which is why we had all those discussions a few months back about whether you would need to actually withdraw men from the bridgehead in order to resupply them somewhere further back, where they were safe from the interdiction coming from the other side of the FLOT.

I don't know - do you think, Dave, that I ought to be able to set up drops and SEPs to be able to supply bridgehead troops - or do you think that it's right what presently happens - that it won't make much difference where I put the SEPs because the supply to my own front line troops gets interdicted by the weight of enemy across the other side of the FLOT (without there being any enemy inside any perimeter I have set up)?

[Arjuna]

phoenix,

Work up ma scenario as you describe with the DZs and SDZs about 3km from the objectives and then we can test it. If the code needs tweaking we can look into that. But first we need a test bed.

[Phoenix100]

Will do!!! Thanks, Dave!!

Nice to see you back in here, by the way - does that mean things are looking better on the home front? I hope so. Peter

[Arjuna]

No not really. My daughter is still in hospital and I found out yesterday from the surgeon that I need another operation on my hand. So it looks like I go under the knife again in a couple of weeks. Oh joy oh joy.

[Phoenix100]

Sorry to hear that. Wish you well through it all.

[jimcarravall]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

No not really. My daughter is still in hospital and I found out yesterday from the surgeon that I need another operation on my hand. So it looks like I go under the knife again in a couple of weeks. Oh joy oh joy.

Hang in there, Dave.

My prayers go out to your daughter.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

No not really. My daughter is still in hospital and I found out yesterday from the surgeon that I need another operation on my hand. So it looks like I go under the knife again in a couple of weeks. Oh joy oh joy.

That's very sad news Dave, hope things work out well for you and your daughter soon.

I'm guessing that your hand problem is carpal tunnel syndrome, which is fairly common amongst regular computer users.

I recently bought a Wacom intuos 5 touch tablet to use with Photoshop.

It took a lot of getting used to, and I must admit I nearly shelved it not long after getting it, but if you persevere you soon get used to it.

It helps a lot to take the stress out of using the mouse as it allows you to use different positions for your hands.
For example you can use the pen for a bit then swap to the touch pad for browsing, then back to your mouse.
I often use my left hand on the pad for browsing.

Its quite expensive, but as your livelihood depends on using the computer, its probably a good investment.

http://www.wacom.com/gb/en/creative/intuos5-touch-m

All the best mate, Daz

[Arjuna]

Daz,

Thanks for that. My first hand op back in May was a Drupytron's Contraction release. Drupytron's is known as the Vikings disease and is hereditary. My great grand father had it. It affects the underlying tissue of the skin and can wrap around tendons and knot into lumps that claw the hand. It had caused my little finger to claw back and was also affecting the palm of my hand so I had to do something about it. The original op went reasonably well, although the hand got infected. Apparently I was just unlucky with a 1-2% infection rate being the norm. Antibioti9cs and regular cleansing fixed the infection and after three months of pretty intensive manual therapy the little finger is not too bad. It will never have the full range of extension or reflex but it is better than it was.

What has happened now though is carpel tunnel which has been brought on by the operation. It was probably going to happen at some time but has been accelerated due to the scarring caused by the healing process. My thumb, fore and index fingers are now partially numb and getting more so. So, I have to have a carpel tunnel release to see if I can get the feeling and strength back in these fingers.

[Magpius]

Forget the tablet.

[Phoenix100]

Not sure if you'll be paying much attention to what's happening in here, Dave, understandably. But in case you stop by. Here's a photo of the supply 'problem' mentioned above. I've set up a 'testbed' scenario and I'm playing through it. I am continually now - at both Nijmegan and Arnhem - getting 100% interdicted messages for the front line troops. The photo highlights just 2. There are no enemy anywhere near the main route from the SEP and base (a kilometre sth of Elden, off picture)so the interdiction must be happening as a result of the enemy troops you can see in Arnhem (from beyond the FLOT). It's a serious problem because I will soon have suffered so much interdiction that there will be no trucks left. And this is only the start of day 2 of a 10 day scenario. I've set up the drop zones and such like so that I should be able to win, but I'm not going to, because before long I'll have no trucks and everyone will be out of supply, no matter how many tons are successfully dropped on the SEPs. I've started trying to rotate the front line battalions. So I will attempt to move 1Bn into 2BN's position. BUT, if that can happen (I can move a whole battalion over the bridge), why can't supply get through? A column of backpackers going over the highway bridge by night should be able to make it, I feel. But it's not happening. Is this really what should be happening? I mean is this really a design feature and not an issue?

[dazkaz15]

Hi Phoenix
I have not looked into you situation properly by loading up your save game, so my opinion here is based purely on what I see in your screen shot.

I think that the enemy SS recon Coy that is positioned along the North bank of he river, would be able to tie down that whole bridge, and prevent proper supply getting over it with just a single heavy machine gun.
They would be able to adjust, and direct any mortars, and all available small arms, and machine gun, firepower on a very small arc of fire on that bridge.
If anything, tried to cross through it without them being properly supressed, I don't think there would be very much left of your supply convoy.

Have you attempted to clear the North bank of the river of enemy to see if your supply situation improves?

[dazkaz15]

What we should be able to do here is have more control of the supply.
We should be able to disable resupply completely for certain units, to prevent the transport form being destroyed in situations like this.

When issuing the coy that have crossed the bridge orders, are you ticking the minimum resupply box for them by the way?

[Phoenix100]

Cheers Daz. Yes, I often tick min supply, but it doesn't stop the columns going across, so it's become less important as I progress to remember that - doesn't seem to make much diff. A 'no supply' button would be better. I'm not sure that I agree - having looked at photos of the bridge and surrounds - that a machine gun could completely supress movement across the bridge at night, though there is far greater than a machine gun over there, I agree. That said, I am - laboriously - able to move whole Batallions over the bridge, in both directions - so why can't a supply column get over? If it needs suppressive cover then there's a stack of paras there - why don't they provide it (I mean, why isn't this factored into the abstraction that kills the trucks?) since I can't manually control it at all? And I take it you were tongue in cheek when you suggested I 'clear' the north bank!! Lol. If only.... I suppose I agree with you about more control over supply though. I could suppress the enemy with indirect fire, for example, if I knew when the columns were trying to get over the bridge. But it's all hidden from me. I find the position very unsatisfactory. I'm up to Day 3 now and the paras over there have been decimated because they have no bullets. Despite me holding the bridge and a completely clear line back to the bases and SEPs. I should add - which is important - the effect is the same if I occupy only the sth bank - there is still sufficient interdiction from over the river to kill my trucks with terrible regularity. I know I've gone on about this before, but I think it's important. Especially, if they are not using the nth bank - there shouldn't be such a risk to the trucks. There should be a button that allows a dribble of man ported supply only. I think that's a really urgent need to be able to play these airborne scenarios properly.

[dazkaz15]

Yes, I think it would seem that you are in one of those situations where an abstracted supply system that works in 99.9% of all other situations is not good enough for this rare, and difficult situation.

I'm sorry if I suggest something that is totally not doable for this scenario, because its one I have not played extensively so can only really go by my experience from over gaming sessions on other scenarios, and what I imagine would work in real life.

Just as you say if, you can get a Coy over in good order you should be able to get a limited amount of supply over as well, given the same visibility levels, and the same weight of firepower to suppress the enemy positions.

If I recall, about what Dave said about getting supply over at night, he mentioned illuminating rounds, that probably wouldn't be very successful in a lot of other situations, but in this one the enemy know exactly where to look for any kind of movement, or sounds of it, in order to send up an illume round as you have such an obvious supply route, and no alternative.

Maybe if it was real life some supply could even be sent across via requisitioned row boats to the south of the bridge, but that's really clutching at straws, especially for an airborne unit.