The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

[Canoerebel]

String, I am using PT boats. Often and in big numbers, at and near Sabang.

Lomri, that's good news. Sabang is going to have to stand as a fortress in a sea of enemy, so I'm gonna stack the airfield early and often.

[JohnDillworth]

the base can support unlimited aircraft when it reaches level 9, right?

Well, yeah, but you would need unlimited aircraft to take advantage of that, right?
How are those aircraft pools? [:D]

[Canoerebel]

At level nine, Sabang becomes a non-floating aircraft carrier. I can base my carrier fighters AND strike aircraft there in strength. Suddenly, I won't have to devote all available space to defense; the base will become a menace on offense too.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Lomri


Yes, at level 9 you can have "unlimited" aircraft. I believe that there is fine print to that however. I am just speaking from my sense of it.

The AV support you have still matters - repairs are slower if you are in the red.

Lots of aircraft, lots of targets. I think this is something of an upward curve (not linear) - so you'll see a lot more damage/destroyed aircraft from bombardment and airfield bombing the more you have there. It is possible the same engines per airfield point still applies to 'overstacking' effects on bombardment and airfield bombing effects.

Somebody needs to correct me . but I think Michealm in one of his Betas (I am not seeing this change in the Beta change log but I remember/ am confabulating the discussion) that level 9 airbases cannot overstack "A 9+ airfield does not suffer from overstacking (p.214), BUT the ol' algorithum of 300 ?Aviation Support? supporting unlimited aircraft has been removed. [&:]?Instead aviation support is simply doubled at a level 9+ base? [&:]

There is this rule: "Every friendly airfield with at least one Base Force unit at the airfield will pick one Base Force to be its primary Base Force. The primary Base Force will have its expected full strength value for aviation support points change so that its expected value equals 30 times the current size of the airfield (never
greater than 250)" (p. 261) So the base is guaranteed 250 with 1 aviation support. (1)*9*30 = 270 .. unless Michealm changed this ..

So unlimited stacking and a guaranteed 250 aviation support makes the base pretty strong ...

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
There is this rule: "Every friendly airfield with at least one Base Force unit at the airfield will pick one Base Force to be its primary Base Force. The primary Base Force will have its expected full strength value for aviation support points change so that its expected value equals 30 times the current size of the airfield (never
greater than 250)" (p. 261) So the base is guaranteed 250 with 1 aviation support. (1)*9*30 = 270 .. unless Michealm changed this ..

So unlimited stacking and a guaranteed 250 aviation support makes the base pretty strong ...

I believe that rule only applies to the AI.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: Lomri


Yes, at level 9 you can have "unlimited" aircraft. I believe that there is fine print to that however. I am just speaking from my sense of it.

The AV support you have still matters - repairs are slower if you are in the red.

Lots of aircraft, lots of targets. I think this is something of an upward curve (not linear) - so you'll see a lot more damage/destroyed aircraft from bombardment and airfield bombing the more you have there. It is possible the same engines per airfield point still applies to 'overstacking' effects on bombardment and airfield bombing effects.

Somebody needs to correct me . but I think Michealm in one of his Betas (I am not seeing this change in the Beta change log but I remember/ am confabulating the discussion) that level 9 airbases cannot overstack "A 9+ airfield does not suffer from overstacking (p.214), BUT the ol' algorithum of 300 ?Aviation Support? supporting unlimited aircraft has been removed. [&:]?Instead aviation support is simply doubled at a level 9+ base? [&:]

There is this rule: "Every friendly airfield with at least one Base Force unit at the airfield will pick one Base Force to be its primary Base Force. The primary Base Force will have its expected full strength value for aviation support points change so that its expected value equals 30 times the current size of the airfield (never
greater than 250)" (p. 261) So the base is guaranteed 250 with 1 aviation support. (1)*9*30 = 270 .. unless Michealm changed this ..

So unlimited stacking and a guaranteed 250 aviation support makes the base pretty strong ...

- AF size 8 or greater have their air support tally doubled.

- There is no longer a cap of 250 air support = infinity. There is no cap at all. Have 2,000 aircraft there, need 2,000 air support to be fully covered, and so on.

I do not recall if those changes are in the last official patch or in a Beta after that time.

That rule you quoted is mysterious to me. This is the first I recall hearing about it. [&:]

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: Lomri


Yes, at level 9 you can have "unlimited" aircraft. I believe that there is fine print to that however. I am just speaking from my sense of it.

The AV support you have still matters - repairs are slower if you are in the red.

Lots of aircraft, lots of targets. I think this is something of an upward curve (not linear) - so you'll see a lot more damage/destroyed aircraft from bombardment and airfield bombing the more you have there. It is possible the same engines per airfield point still applies to 'overstacking' effects on bombardment and airfield bombing effects.

Somebody needs to correct me . but I think Michealm in one of his Betas (I am not seeing this change in the Beta change log but I remember/ am confabulating the discussion) that level 9 airbases cannot overstack "A 9+ airfield does not suffer from overstacking (p.214), BUT the ol' algorithum of 300 ?Aviation Support? supporting unlimited aircraft has been removed. [&:]?Instead aviation support is simply doubled at a level 9+ base? [&:]

There is this rule: "Every friendly airfield with at least one Base Force unit at the airfield will pick one Base Force to be its primary Base Force. The primary Base Force will have its expected full strength value for aviation support points change so that its expected value equals 30 times the current size of the airfield (never
greater than 250)" (p. 261) So the base is guaranteed 250 with 1 aviation support. (1)*9*30 = 270 .. unless Michealm changed this ..

So unlimited stacking and a guaranteed 250 aviation support makes the base pretty strong ...

- AF size 8 or greater have their air support tally doubled.

- There is no longer a cap of 250 air support = infinity. There is no cap at all. Have 2,000 aircraft there, need 2,000 air support to be fully covered, and so on.

I do not recall if those changes are in the last official patch or in a Beta after that time.

That rule you quoted is mysterious to me. This is the first I recall hearing about it. [&:]

Ok that was it .. 250 == infinity for a level 9 airbase was the change Michealm made ..
although the doubling of air support for >7 makes it sort of a moot point ...

Now as for as the rule on p 261 .. I have not observed the software behavior so I can not verify if the rule matches the software or if this has been changed along the way .....

[witpqs]

Now as for as the rule on p 261 .. I have not observed the software behavior so I can not verify if the rule matches the software or if this has been changed along the way .....

I think Xargun nailed that one, must be AI specific.

[Canoerebel]

Do I understand, then, than 8 is the new 9? IE, once Sabang airfield goes to level 8 (in about three days), air support is doubled. So, I currently have about 450 support, meaning I can handle 900 aircaft (engines) there? Or is a level 8 field still restricted to 50 x 8 engines (so that while support is doubled, the limit on aircraft remains the same).

I'm confused!

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Do I understand, then, than 8 is the new 9? IE, once Sabang airfield goes to level 8 (in about three days), air support is doubled. So, I currently have about 450 support, meaning I can handle 900 aircaft (engines) there? Or is a level 8 field still restricted to 50 x 8 engines (so that while support is doubled, the limit on aircraft remains the same).

I'm confused!

Lvl 8: Support doubles ..aircraft stacking limits still apply
Lvl 9+ Support Doubles .. no aircraft stacking limits ...

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Do I understand, then, than 8 is the new 9? IE, once Sabang airfield goes to level 8 (in about three days), air support is doubled. So, I currently have about 450 support, meaning I can handle 900 aircaft (engines) there? Or is a level 8 field still restricted to 50 x 8 engines (so that while support is doubled, the limit on aircraft remains the same).

I'm confused!

You are misreading this. The number engines that can be handled at a base is 50 * level for level 1 through 8, and unlimited for level 9. The number of groups that can be handled at a base varies based on HQ proximity, but is unlimited for level 9.

The amount of air support (aviation support squads), is what it is for levels 1 through 7. For levels 8 and above, the number is doubled (each enabled aviation support squad is counted twice, in effect).

The amount of air support (aviation support squads) is 1 per aircraft, that is to say there is no more cap of 250 or any other number except maybe for the AI. If you have 5,000 aircraft you need 5,000 air support or else you are in the red and suffer the penalties for that.

To bring multiple factors together in an example if the airfield is level 8, then you would only need 2,500 aviation support squads to get 5,000 air support because at size 8 and above the tally gets doubled. However, a size 8 airfield can only support 8 * 50 engines so the field would be massively over stacked and probably liable to spontaneous combustion. Further, the number of groups required to be present to equal 5,000 aircraft is best not guessed at, but it too will surely over-subscribe the amount allowed at a size 8 airfield, even if the Wright brothers were staffing the air HQ.

[Cap Mandrake]

May we have a screen capture of Northern Sumatra?


PS. If the screen tries to run away when you go to capture it, try Windex flavored doggie biscuits. They love 'em.

[Canoerebel]

Thanks, witpqs. Here's how I understand my current situation at Sabang:

1. In three days, the airfield goes to level 8. So the field will then be able to handle 50 x 8 = 400 engines. I already have 400 av support at the base, which is doubled to 800, which is more than adequate (obviously) to handle whatever # of aircraft total 400 engines.

2. When the airfield goes to level 9, it can handle an unlimited number of engines. At that point, the av support doubled meaning, 400 x 2 = 800. So then the field can handle the number of aircraft that totals up to 800 engines (which should be more than enough to handle nearly any contingency).

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Thanks, witpqs. Here's how I understand my current situation at Sabang:

1. In three days, the airfield goes to level 8. So the field will then be able to handle 50 x 8 = 400 engines. I already have 400 av support at the base, which is doubled to 800, which is more than adequate (obviously) to handle whatever # of aircraft total 400 engines.

2. When the airfield goes to level 9, it can handle an unlimited number of engines. At that point, the av support doubled meaning, 400 x 2 = 800. So then the field can handle the number of aircraft that totals up to 800 engines (which should be more than enough to handle nearly any contingency).

"One Aviation Support point is required for each aircraft operating at an airbase for those aircraft to function at maximum efficiency" (p. 252).

Support =1 for 1 Aircraft not engines .....

[Canoerebel]

Oh, gotcha. So, a level nine airfield can handle unlimited engines. With 400 x 2 Aviation Support, I could, for example, base 500 fighters, 200 SBD and Avengers, and 50 B-25s (two engines) and be at the limit that 400 Av Support could handle.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Oh, gotcha. So, a level nine airfield can handle unlimited engines. With 400 x 2 Aviation Support, I could, for example, base 500 fighters, 200 SBD and Avengers, and 50 B-25s (two engines) and be at the limit that 400 Av Support could handle.

and actually [just completing a thought for your readers] you can choose to overstack beyond support / airfield levels.. the penalties for doing this range from extra days for airplane repair and increased operational losses to adjusting the damage and numbers involved from an airfield attack ...

[Lomri]

For planning it is helpful to know all these rules. But at the end of the day you'll just want to keep an eye on the base aircraft list. At the top it lists what your max number is, and which value you went over in order to "over stack". (Worth mentioning that having less AV support than aircraft isn't overstacking, just under supporting).

I don't know, so I'd be curious to hear, if administrative over stacking has an impact on aircraft damage during attacks (bombard/airfield).

I've attached a screen shot of a level 9 airfield where it clearly stops having a "max" and an administratively over stacked airfield for examples.

However, while technically not overstacked, a level 9 airfield with 800 aircraft seem to take a lot higher frequency of damaged and destroyed airplanes from bombardment and airfield attacks. This is particularly noticeable on night time airfield attacks which rarely hit anything until you have a lot of planes sitting around on the ground. You may not be technically over stacked but you have created a target rich environment.

[Canoerebel]

12/18/42

Thanks, Lomri and all you gents, for helping me understand this aspect of the game. Now, on to today's turn, which was ugly for the Allies, which could have been better, and which could have been worse. But, all in all, an icky day.

Carriers: No sign of the KB. The Allied carriers are moving slowly north. Illustrious is due to withdraw in 19 days.

The March of the Victims: That enemy TF west of Port Blair turned out to be four DDs raiding my sea lanes. The TF caught up with a replenishment TF, sank three AO and crippled PG Soerabaja, which in turn sank one enemy DD. Enemy subs claimed two other AOs today. Ouch! A stout Allied TF led by CA Frobisher intercepted the raiders, but the latter broke contact successfully.

Sumatra: Three Allied combat TFs were targeted to Langsa to intercept incoming enemy bombardment TFs. The first two Allied TFs - all destroyers - succeeded. Five of the DDs went under. They, in turn, took down a couple of DMS with them. The enemy BBs were undoubtedly low on ammo, but the fast Allied BB TF arrived too late to engage, for some reason, and then hung aruond the entire turn in the open! The TF underwent attack by well more than 100 Netties, plus a gaggle of Kates and Vals. Fortunately, no torps hit home and the only damage was a modest hit on CL Ceres (very lucky there, though also very unlucky in failing to have surface combat, if you follow). The newly arrived merchantmen have all unloaed, so Sabang has 250k supply. Two empty merchantmen TF will depart Sabang tonight for the very hazardous trip back to Ceylon - these crews aren't getting paid enough.

Colombo: The triage unit is beginning to empty out. CA New Orleans and CL Mauritius (plus a number of subs and xAPs) will be ready in less than ten days. Then, CAs Pensacola and Qunicy will have a turn. Meanwhile, BB Indiana and CA Wichita are a day or two out. They will form the core of the theater reserve.

[JohnDillworth]

Enemy subs claimed two other AOs today

I think your AO's have been taking on the chin. You have to be short of these by now. IIRC you don't really have excess AO's & TK's until late 43

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Oh, gotcha. So, a level nine airfield can handle unlimited engines. With 400 x 2 Aviation Support, I could, for example, base 500 fighters, 200 SBD and Avengers, and 50 B-25s (two engines) and be at the limit that 400 Av Support could handle.

and actually [just completing a thought for your readers] you can choose to overstack beyond support / airfield levels.. the penalties for doing this range from extra days for airplane repair and increased operational losses to adjusting the damage and numbers involved from an airfield attack ...

Right - and in a series of lengthy threads on the subject, the devs and TheElf in particular noted that they intend for over stacking to be a burden on players, as a check on operational tempo. You are not 'doing something wrong' if you over stack. Rather, you are making a trade off and will pay the piper with whatever the penalties are for that over stacking (whether if be having too many engines, too many groups, too little air support for the # of planes...).

Having said that, some players seem to think that over stacking is dastardly and have house rules against it. Whatever trips your trigger. [8D]