Mktours(Ger)VsMarquo(Sov)

[hfarrish]

I really think the answer is to agree to give up HQBU and bomber refueling and find the appropriate Soviet givebacks (fight forward and some kind of blizzard restriction, like only deliberate attacks) and go from there. Really the logistic stuff and blizzard in 41 represents 99% of the annoying cheese in this game, get rid of it and things are much better...

[Dangun]

I have a question for MKTours.

Why did AGN only turn north, after moving east of the Valdai Hills?

This is definitely not the shortest route.
If we assume for a moment that the goal is to cut the Leningrad rail line and reach the port of Svirtsa to cut all supply into Leningrad then there are 3 basic routes:
1) West of the Volkhov - from hex X64Y41 (just south of Livani, the furthest a panzer gets on turn 1) that's 98MP or 131 for motorised
2) East of the Volkhov, but west of the Valdai Hills - from hex X64Y41, that's 114MP or 165 for motorised
3) East of the Valdai Hills - from hex X64Y41, that's 138MP or 183 for motorised

You chose a route that was 40% longer. Why? I am interested.
I can see that you might encounter fewer EZOCs in this direction. But still, its the long way around.

Thanks

[mktours]

Dangun
I am still new to the game, so I am not sure if it is the best way, but I think I would keep doing it.

ORIGINAL: Dangun

time consuming, especially I am not a native English speaker, which means I have to spend more time and energy in doing it. So I am not going to post the reports of those turns.

Understood.

What I found most interesting in this AAR was how many of mktours' units seemed to be 'taking a rest'.

A lot of units seem to be kept more than 2 hexes back from the front line for the purpose of having them accumulate MP (refuel). This is interesting because board wargames never give you an incentive to do this. It seems that for the GHC, a major attack every 2/3 turns is much better than constantly pushing at the Soviet front lines. In the few games I've played against human opponents their panzers have spent most of the time at 16-24 MP.

I am not sure what exactly about logistics and combat system makes this effective.

[mktours]

My initial aim was not Leningrad, I was aiming at Moscow. Leningrad was a surprise. you could see that it was a surprise attack that sealed off the north.
In T3, the entire pz group was cut off, this event upset my initial plan, otherwise they would do a massive assault and clear the way for the 2 army group to advance directly towards Moscow. Leningrad is not as important as Moscow, if Moscow fall, Leningrad would be in very poor position to hold.
My plan was to use the spearhead to draw soviet troops towards it, while my major troops would make a surprise attack towards Moscow, not that I could capture it all by surprise, but just achieving a very good situation on that front, for example, having Pz corps cut deep into the rear so it would be very difficult for soviet to put up a good defense there.
after the battle from T3 to T6, I only have half of the Pzs for the planned big assault at Moscow, also there was an oppotunity in the Leningrad direction, so I adjusted my plan.

ORIGINAL: Dangun

I have a question for MKTours.

Why did AGN only turn north, after moving east of the Valdai Hills?

This is definitely not the shortest route.
If we assume for a moment that the goal is to cut the Leningrad rail line and reach the port of Svirtsa to cut all supply into Leningrad then there are 3 basic routes:
1) West of the Volkhov - from hex X64Y41 (just south of Livani, the furthest a panzer gets on turn 1) that's 98MP or 131 for motorised
2) East of the Volkhov, but west of the Valdai Hills - from hex X64Y41, that's 114MP or 165 for motorised
3) East of the Valdai Hills - from hex X64Y41, that's 138MP or 183 for motorised

You chose a route that was 40% longer. Why? I am interested.
I can see that you might encounter fewer EZOCs in this direction. But still, its the long way around.

Thanks

[Dangun]

ORIGINAL: mktours
I am still new to the game, so I am not sure if it is the best way, but I think I would keep doing it.

I am even newer.
I have not played a full campaign game yet and only 4 scenarios versus human opponents.

I have tried to replicate your ARR (and others) against the AI, but I can't keep up. My panzers don't have the same MP! Which means I do not understand how to maximize panzer fuel, and I need to learn something about the supply system.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Kamil,

I have attempted to choose my words very carefully, and once again no one has criticized MkTours for his excellent gameplay, rather what the game engine allows a player to do with logistics.

We all play for different reasons, and fantasy advances based on poor logistical modeling is not for me. I enjoy historical simulations which allow one to play with approximate modeling of conditions.

I fully agree that the game was far from over; but saw no point in continuing to counterattack, displace HQs, and encircle his lead units all to absolutely no avail. And if the things I managed to do upset his his timetable, than I dread to imagine where he would have been if I had not done those things.

Marquo [:)]

With the last patch, only transports dropping supplies these tactics are not possible any more.

[mmarquo]

Pelton,

Perhaps my one contribution to this game was to present historical evidence against the use of level bombers as flying gas cans. MK Tours mastered the art of logistics to perfection, and the new patch stifled was he was doing as evidenced in this AAR. Extended Lvov coupled with the trans-Roumanian express and flying fuel tanks is now a ting of the past.

Marquo [:)]

[mktours]

Mark,
I think you got the main reason of why you lose this game wrong. In my game with DarbyMcd, we have a house rule of not allowing air-supply from LW bombers, but I still won.
The game is in favor of the soviet side even with the LB air supply, many good axis players like Michael T never doubt of it.

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Pelton,

Perhaps my one contribution to this game was to present historical evidence against the use of level bombers as flying gas cans. MK Tours mastered the art of logistics to perfection, and the new patch stifled was he was doing as evidenced in this AAR. Extended Lvov coupled with the trans-Roumanian express and flying fuel tanks is now a ting of the past.

Marquo [:)]

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: mktours

Mark,
I think you got the main reason of why you lose this game wrong. In my game with DarbyMcd, we have a house rule of not allowing air-supply from LW bombers, but I still won.
The game is in favor of the soviet side even with the LB air supply, many good axis players like Michael T never doubt of it.

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Pelton,

Perhaps my one contribution to this game was to present historical evidence against the use of level bombers as flying gas cans. MK Tours mastered the art of logistics to perfection, and the new patch stifled was he was doing as evidenced in this AAR. Extended Lvov coupled with the trans-Roumanian express and flying fuel tanks is now a ting of the past.

Marquo [:)]

In the past the German Army falls apart because of a HUGE armament sink ( swapping bugs ),the national morale bug, the guard 2x pts of morale for 1 win , an ammo bug to name a few.

These bugs have been mostly fixed making it next to impossible for the Russian army to get a win if the GHC player plays the game out right.

Sure people look amazing when the German Army simply falls apart not because of combat, but because of a morale bug and swapping bugs.

The Red I win button has been removed now people have to earn a victory as the Russian player its not handed to them because they held Moscow.

[Peltonx]

All things being equal games started using 1.07.11 - .13 should end in a draw.

Which is what 2by3 has been shotting for from the start.

I feel the game is finally balanced and by .13 will be very much done.