The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

[princep01]

Pollack....hummm...and here I am thinking it was just a fish that a US submarine was named after.
 
CR, I don't know this senario you are playing at all, but as someone said above....make sure you did not inadventantly turn off production of some fighters.  I know you have been heavily engaged in the air for quite sometime and I have been less engaged in my game (stock), but in October 1942, I have more than 170 P-39Ds and a respectible number of all other fighters in my pools.  Given your current situation, you might think of standing down a turn over your main base then popping back up when the bombers make their play.  A rest turn will reinvigorate a large number of damaged fighters.  It is a gamble, but if the weather is also bad, his bombers might not do a lot of damage even if he commits them while you are down.
 
Also, I suspect you are layering your CAP to cover a fair number of altitudes and flying AC at optimal heights.  If not, welll....  Finally, he is losing a lot more pilots than you as he is fairly far afield.  Nonetheless, he may be coming from a number of AFs.  Therefore, it would be logical that he is recovering damage faster.  He is losing a lot of planes/pilots in these excursions and presumably a lot of crack pilots.
 
Who will crack first? Carry on.

[Wuffer]

Confederate HQ, Pontimac, June 21th, 186x,

„With all respect, Mr General, it’s not the right time for a joke!“
„Pff, you think I’m kidding? True, we got their Capitol, but look at our arty...!“
„Mr General, our troops awaiting your orders - just now!“
„C’m guys, be serious. The yanks will counterattack tomorrow with all their guns and all I have is this lousy handvoll of bronze muzzleloaders...
this sucks, G’men, our industrial basis just can’t compare with the mighty factories of the North. It’s not only unfair, it sucks. It’s a lost cause, why didn’t you understand?
I’m sick of all these fighting... Last week, I dreamt about a big hemp plantage. I think I should better concentrate on my little farm; this Indian plants have much underestimated qualities...“
„You can not leave us now! You are are a national hero, Mr Lee, look at our schoolboys: Your poster is hanging about their beds!“
„tzzzz, a lost cause.... ‚King Cotton’ was a erroneous idea, based on dumb wishthinking. Good bye, G’men.“


))

[Wuffer]

CR,
look at this: All his new shiny ships will burn a lot of oil...

If he hasn't allready crushed his economy, he will do so very soon.
Don't sink his Navy toys, just let him travel all over the map...

[Cap Mandrake]

You need to get the RAF Hurris and the P-39's into the fight. The P-39's can be brought in by back-converting P-40K damaged squadrons to P-39's, thus freeing up P-40K's for the other squadrons.

The Hurris will have to flown in off CVE decks.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I know I sound like a broken record (young guys: look it up), but there is something holding Japan back if only it were observed: VPs. Play the design; it's in there. If CR has destroyed a vast number more aircraft as he says he's "winning" to an extent already if the design is respected.

Looks like this AAR is about to go dark, but perhaps this point can be a final take-away.

Yes, VPs are of course something to take into consideration. But from the AARs I follow and my own game a 1:1 ratio is quite common at this period? So the Japanese player isn´t losing points. He is breaking even. Of course this is a generalisation but you have to look at the loss ratio and not production when it comes to VPs. Right? While this might have a small effect on Japanese auto victory I don´t think any Jap player would consider a 1:1 VP ratio in exchange for completely removing the allied air force to mid 43 as a bad exchange?

The problem lies in human nature. One side is given the ability to completely alter the production system and tailor it to perfection. Optimising it to something far beyond what possible in the real war. Of course any self respecting Japanese player would do this. Why limit yourself to historical boundaries when you can do far better? And over the years Japanese players has become REALLY good at this so they can squeeze every little drop out of it.

This while the other side is shackled by historical restraints and the actual happenings in the war. Of course things are going to go bonkers? I think CR has a very valid point when it comes to the fun factor. There is a reason for many players pulling a "sir robin" in one way or another. Its just counter productive to stand and fight at most locations. Allied pools can´t sustain it and you can lose 2-3 months of replacements in a single Tojo sweep. Then the Japanese players complain that the allied player pulled a "sir robin". Doesn´t sound like much fun for either side?

Same thing holds true for on map pilot training. Basically that gave BOTH sides unlimited pilots far better trained than was ever possible. Was the engine built around pilots having a MINIMUM of 70 as their major skill? And true to human nature both sides squeeze every little drop out of the system. The game is built around historical events and limitations yet both sides contribute to driving things to its very edge by squeezing every drop out what we can customize. And then we all sit down and complain when the engine falls apart around us? [:D]

My bet is that if you scale everything back to more "normal" levels both sides will have a more enjoyable experience. Find that spot where the devs said "this is our baseline" and stay there. Personally as I said before I think PDU ON is disruptive for the game as a whole. I think the game is meant to be played with it OFF and I think thats how it should be played (I think this was even confirmed by one of the devs?). But for some reason PDU ON has become the norm. So we sit down and moan about the game getting weird when we are in reality playing it in a way the devs never intended for us to do.

[paullus99]

Joc brings up a very good point - that by creating a situation where the JFB is basically invincible for the first two and a half years of the game, can line up literally thousands of fighters and bombers (with no regard to losses), backed up by every ship that could be put on the line, and crush any attempt by the Allied Player to "make game" by doing what CR did....given that those two and a half years represent how many hundreds of turns? Which, of course, forces the Allied player to just sit there and take it (much like the Japanese player's job is to sit and take it for the last year and a half of the war).....I can see where the frustration comes in.

Is the point of these scenarios to try to make a fun game for both players or just provide one side with the ability to control the game to the point where they either become disinterested because they aren't winning anymore and quit or the Allied player just quits because no matter what they do, they'll be crushed until they have such numerical superiority that the issue would never be in doubt anyway?

There are a number of historical / non-historical trade-offs in this game to begin with, but when does it get to the point where one side is literally consigned to the sidelines for months of real-life time...(and yes, I too hate using the word literally).

Again, just my $0.02 looking at both this game & how a number of others using these types of mods have gone in the past.....

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Joc brings up a very good point - that by creating a situation where the JFB is basically invincible for the first two and a half years of the game, can line up literally thousands of fighters and bombers (with no regard to losses), backed up by every ship that could be put on the line, and crush any attempt by the Allied Player to "make game" by doing what CR did....given that those two and a half years represent how many hundreds of turns? Which, of course, forces the Allied player to just sit there and take it (much like the Japanese player's job is to sit and take it for the last year and a half of the war).....I can see where the frustration comes in.

Is the point of these scenarios to try to make a fun game for both players or just provide one side with the ability to control the game to the point where they either become disinterested because they aren't winning anymore and quit or the Allied player just quits because no matter what they do, they'll be crushed until they have such numerical superiority that the issue would never be in doubt anyway?

There are a number of historical / non-historical trade-offs in this game to begin with, but when does it get to the point where one side is literally consigned to the sidelines for months of real-life time...(and yes, I too hate using the word literally).

Again, just my $0.02 looking at both this game & how a number of others using these types of mods have gone in the past.....

I agree with many of the comments above about limiting in some way the extreme outcomes available for both sides that are magnified early toward the Japanese side due to the difference in airframe production potential.

Where I would question your comment here is the timeframe you're using. The "first two and a half years of the game" would be up to May 44. I'm not sure there are many if any games where a Japanese player is dominant in 44. If so it's probably due to game situations such as losing CVs or having a big setback as Allies. Maybe due to trying some thing too big too early.

In my game with Jocke he was unfortunate (mostly due to weather we think) in losing a CV battle that set him behind schedule. Due to a careful use of his air forces and maintaining his pools throughout he was able to advance and have a good air loss ratio throughout 42-43 and be easily dominant in all of 44 in the air in spite of never having numerical superiority.

Granted I am still a medium level player but he has figured out a system that optimizes the use of the Allied air force and is able to combat these numbers. I think a lot of what happens is due to player choices, not so much the number of planes available. Allied quality will win out if used well. Our 2nd best maneuver band HR also helped him in these later stages, but I doubt even without it that anything could have changed P-47s getting 5:1 or better odds in sweeps. I'm certainly not out-producing by a 5:1 ratio, and it's not even 2:1, so those sweeps and 4E strikes do take their toll.

I have no idea his pools, but I know his pilots must be very strong and they help maximize his available airframes. (He probably also has masses of poor quality airframes around to use in a pinch as I rarely see these in combat. FM-1 & 2 and P-40 models mostly).

[Crackaces]

I'm not sure there are many if any games where a Japanese player is dominant in 44.

How many RA 5.X games have made it to 1944? How many RA games with the same home rules as this game have made it to 1944?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I know I sound like a broken record (young guys: look it up), but there is something holding Japan back if only it were observed: VPs. Play the design; it's in there. If CR has destroyed a vast number more aircraft as he says he's "winning" to an extent already if the design is respected.

Looks like this AAR is about to go dark, but perhaps this point can be a final take-away.

Yes, VPs are of course something to take into consideration. But from the AARs I follow and my own game a 1:1 ratio is quite common at this period? So the Japanese player isn´t losing points. He is breaking even. Of course this is a generalisation but you have to look at the loss ratio and not production when it comes to VPs. Right? While this might have a small effect on Japanese auto victory I don´t think any Jap player would consider a 1:1 VP ratio in exchange for completely removing the allied air force to mid 43 as a bad exchange?

The problem lies in human nature. One side is given the ability to completely alter the production system and tailor it to perfection. Optimising it to something far beyond what possible in the real war. Of course any self respecting Japanese player would do this. Why limit yourself to historical boundaries when you can do far better? And over the years Japanese players has become REALLY good at this so they can squeeze every little drop out of it.

This while the other side is shackled by historical restraints and the actual happenings in the war. Of course things are going to go bonkers? I think CR has a very valid point when it comes to the fun factor. There is a reason for many players pulling a "sir robin" in one way or another. Its just counter productive to stand and fight at most locations. Allied pools can´t sustain it and you can lose 2-3 months of replacements in a single Tojo sweep. Then the Japanese players complain that the allied player pulled a "sir robin". Doesn´t sound like much fun for either side?

Same thing holds true for on map pilot training. Basically that gave BOTH sides unlimited pilots far better trained than was ever possible. Was the engine built around pilots having a MINIMUM of 70 as their major skill? And true to human nature both sides squeeze every little drop out of the system. The game is built around historical events and limitations yet both sides contribute to driving things to its very edge by squeezing every drop out what we can customize. And then we all sit down and complain when the engine falls apart around us? [:D]

My bet is that if you scale everything back to more "normal" levels both sides will have a more enjoyable experience. Find that spot where the devs said "this is our baseline" and stay there. Personally as I said before I think PDU ON is disruptive for the game as a whole. I think the game is meant to be played with it OFF and I think thats how it should be played (I think this was even confirmed by one of the devs?). But for some reason PDU ON has become the norm. So we sit down and moan about the game getting weird when we are in reality playing it in a way the devs never intended for us to do.

In my game in late July 1942 I've destroyed about 660 more planes than Japan has. They have equal VP ratings for each side: 2 for heavy bombers (I actually don't know if Japanese 2Es are considered "heavy") 1 for fighters. CR has said many times he's way, way ahead of John in pure numbers of destroyed planes. That may not get all the way back to equity, but it's not nothing. IF the players respect and play for VPs. An "it's just a journey" Japan player won't care how many planes/VPs he throws away and it can become the "Hulk smash!" hour.

Second, at this point in the game's lifespan it's not realistic for any Allied player to bewail his pools. We all know how they are and how they work. Same with what we face.

Third, the game and the victory conditions are balanced on the models. You can't just throw in, say, 30% more Allied air metal and expect not to break the thing.

Fourth, I think there is too much reliance on the air side of the game. My fighter pools are as flat as CR's. I have not spared them, I have not Sir Robined. But look in my AAR at the situation in Burma. Japan has total air superiority. I take losses on the ground, but the battle is not lost. If the Allied player uses terrain, local forts, built forts, AA LCUs, internal LCU AA devices, and pays attention to LCU leadership and mode (Reserve is woefully underused I think) he can stand--for awhile--on a location and take the rain of death from the skies. Air is one leg of three in the game, but GG put the most detail there so a lot of players focus on it. It's better to have air superiority of course, but if you don't you have more options than run or die. IMO of course.

I think you have excellent points on training. It's too fast IMO, and moreover it's too uniform. Not every pilot can be Chuck Yeager no matter how much he practices. Some guys are just average or below (50% in fact.) But your best point is the one on PDU. Well, PDU and Scen 1. THOSE ARE THE HISTORIC NORMS. But nobody plays them. They aren't "fun." That's not the devs' fault. They put them in, they put in the option to go around them. With the editor the option to REALLY go around them.

Count the number of Opponents Wanted ads with Scen 1, PDU Off. It won't take you long.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Posted this in John's AAR. Here is what the latest version of RA (6.0x) shows for early war American fighters. Can you compare them Dan and/or let me know what version this PBEM is so I can load it??

Pulling up RA 6.0x that isn't the final version, but should be correct for American fighters for early war ('42 to early '43). I would need to know what version this PBEM is to load it.

P-38E...5/42 - 5/42...24/mo (Replacements)
P-38F...8/42 - 9/42...40/mo (Production)
P-38G...10/42 - 5/43..20/mo (Prod) means 60/mo
P-38H...6/43 - 11/43..20/mo (Prod) means 80/mo
P-38J...12/43 - 5/44..20/mo (Prod) means 100/mo
P-38L...6/44 - end....30/mo (Prod) means 130/mo

This is an increase from stock.

P-40E...12/41 - 10/42...45/mo
P-40K...9/42 - 7/43 ....65/mo

F4F-4 Wildcat...3/42 - 4/43...45/mo

Either there is a mix up in the mod that has no P-38s being produced or by accident the production was turned off.

Sorry but this simply isnt correct as i understand it.
Pic inclosed of the P-38F showing its listed as replacement therefor has no factories and cant upgrade aka the line stops at 9/42.
U can in RA make it into prodcution and alter that. Its ur mod u can set it how u like and im not argueing that or if its right or wrong, but u say its prodcution is the same as in the standart scn. Its not if u alter it to production as it alters the overall number of planes that arrive from teh standart scn. u can do that and its fine but its NOT the same as the standart scenario, nor do u list it as increase from stock.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Mike McCreery]

Canoerebel,

I have enjoyed reading this AAR so thanks for taking the time on it.

One of the things that struck me were some of Nemo's comments regarding not asking the proper question. I think it might apply for this scenario.

Assuming you can never fight toe to toe with your opponents air power, what are the right question to ask?

What are your opponents weaknesses? Can you position your attacks in such a way that his air power is diminished?

It seems like this is a great opportunity to take your game play to a higher level.

Just my .02

[Cap Mandrake]

USAAF fighter replacement pools sorted by size of pool, May 43, Scenario 2.

[Walloc]

CB has a slightly used Mazda he is selling for cheap Cap. Turn the enemy on him self sorta thing, it is a flying Circus after all [:D]

[Cap Mandrake]

Another fun trick on sweeps battles is to intermittently "go dark" and put up no CAP. The bad guys suffer ops losses and fatigue while your chaps have espresso and beignets. Or you put up a deliberately weak, sacrificial CAP after a big battle to feign weakness. It is just the kind of thing that would goad the Reluctant Admiral into attacking with the Bettys. Then, the next day, no more beignets. Everybody flies.

Of course, don't do the "go dark" day on the day of his first big air attack. [:)]

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: Walloc

CB has a slightly used Mazda he is selling for cheap Cap. Turn the enemy on him self sorta thing, it is a flying Circus after all [:D]

In my experience, a Mazda is "slightly used" until the head gasket blows, which is about 150 miles after the warranty expires. I would recommend the P-39 or even a snazzy new P-43.

[Cap Mandrake]

Also, how far back do I have to go to understand why CR "needs a break"? Was is it the business with the Poles? The air battle?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Walloc

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

P-38E...5/42 - 5/42...24/mo (Replacements)
P-38F...8/42 - 9/42...40/mo (Production)
P-38G...10/42 - 5/43..20/mo (Prod) means 60/mo
P-38H...6/43 - 11/43..20/mo (Prod) means 80/mo
P-38J...12/43 - 5/44..20/mo (Prod) means 100/mo
P-38L...6/44 - end....30/mo (Prod) means 130/mo

Sorry but this simply isnt correct as i understand it.
Pic inclosed of the P-38F showing its listed as replacement therefor has no factories and cant upgrade aka the line stops at 9/42.
U can in RA make it into prodcution and alter that. Its ur mod u can set it how u like and im not argueing that or if its right or wrong, but u say its prodcution is the same as in the standart scn. Its not if u alter it to production as it alters the overall number of planes that arrive from teh standart scn. u can do that and its fine but its NOT the same as the standart scenario, nor do u list it as increase from stock.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

With the P-38F what you say might be correct. But for many models they do have factories because factories making prior models will upgrade to that model. In the aircraft pools display the factories will not show under the new model until they actually upgrade to that model.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

With the P-38F what you say might be correct. But for many models they do have factories because factories making prior models will upgrade to that model. In the aircraft pools display the factories will not show under the new model until they actually upgrade to that model.

Absolutly and if u look at the thread obvert refered to i say exactly that there. I was refering to this specific case. As u in effect of NY59Giant changes goes from a 20 to a 60 per month prodcution which is trippling it and then saying its the same as the standart scn. Also if changed to production from replacement this will carry on so u get 40 more through out the life of the P-38 because of the reasons u state. Which isnt a trippling later on but non the less 40 more than in the standart scn and saying u havent made any changes. Its that and only that, i protest. Saying its the same. Not whether u should do it or not or if its the same or not in other cases.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

USAAF fighter replacement pools sorted by size of pool, May 43, Scenario 2.

Of course, Cap'n, you guys are considering a landing on ******-jima [redacted for OPSEC] in early 1943. The pace of your game means a rapid depletion of your airframe pools, on par with CR's very early offensive(s).

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Also, how far back do I have to go to understand why CR "needs a break"? Was is it the business with the Poles? The air battle?

Both, probably. He did ask that such talk cease, and it didn't. Plus he is having family issues, and who knows what-not in his life. For all we know a bird pooped in his morning coffee & it drove him 'round the bend.

The man needed a break. At least he was polite is saying "Piss Off" [:D]