Soviet CV multiplied by 6. WAD?

[rmonical]

I went ahead and attacked the same cav division 9 times after the first remarkable result. The defending unit reports to STAVKA which I assume is some 30 hexes away. The initial to final CV multiplier for each attack was.
174 30 580%
68 26 262%
37 24 154%
31 22 141%
15 20 75%
7 11 64%
5 10 50%
13 8 163%
11 7 157%

In another PBEM game, I just reviewed a number of my counterattacks in 1941 against German units. In no case was the modified CV of the defending unit 200% of the original, much less 580%. In most of the cases, the modified CV of the defending German unit was less than the original shown. In one case, I reran the attack dozens of times and in every case, the modified CV of the defending German units was less than the original shown. It turns out the German commander running the defense was one of their best (Rendulic). The corps HQ was 4 hexes away and not overloaded. The starting CV is 340 and the modified CV ran from 200 to 338. This was turn 15.The stack was attacked from 5 sides but was not isolated; does that effect MCV?

1. What contributes to the 580% modifier shown in the first attack? Why are the modifiers so benign after the first two attacks?
2. How can the defending German stack never receive a CV bonus?

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Are these results from our game? I think I remember that cavalry unit. I parked it in the swamp to block your advance. I guess terrain has a major effect on combat. However, the results look absurd. Especially, since you are attacking with the support of 100 bombers. Are these hasty attacks?

[Helpless]

There is no multiplier.

On counter CV and modified CV are calculated totally different ways.

Defender's CV id fogged, so it can vary a lot from the real one.

There is no difference on the way how CV is calculated for the various sides.

[Schmart]

1. Terrain does have an effect on CV. That Russian Cav Div starts out in a swamp hex. Swamps can give pretty big defensive bonuses. Especially in 1941 when the German player is used to easily pushing back 1-1 ants, swamps can sometimes be a nasty surprise. After the first few attacks, the Cav Div has been disrupted and fatigued, making it easier to dislodge.

2. I think you mean to say the German attacking stack? In which case as your screenshots show, they do often get modified CV increases. I think these things depend on leader rolls, SU commitment, supply, fatigue, hasty vs deliberate attacks, etc.

[rmonical]

ORIGINAL: Helpless
There is no multiplier.

On counter CV and modified CV are calculated totally different ways.

Defender's CV id fogged, so it can vary a lot from the real one.

There is no difference on the way how CV is calculated for the various sides.

In the combat results screen for the first combat (30->174) is the original CV value shown for the Soviet (30) fogged or calculated?

I understand there is no multiplier. There is a calculation of modified CV that in the first cases, happens to be 580% of the displayed CV.

In this server game as German, I see a lot of combats where the final calculated CV for the Soviet unit is 300% to 580% higher than the CV. In my PBEM game as Soviet, in the handful of attacks I made, the difference between the German CV and MCV was generally in the range of 60% to 150% and usually below 100%.

So my very specific question is what factors would contribute to the situation where the defending stack's MCV is always less than the CV no matter how effective the commander. I have run this attack dozens of times and the MCV is never greater than the CV.

[rmonical]

Ran the combat again and saved. Both views of this combat result are the same.

[gingerbread]

Ground elements that have taken fire combat losses & disruptions does not contribute to MCV.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

In our game I made three counterattacks on turn 7. They were all against units in clear terrain. All attacks were with units from one army and there was huge numerical superiority. Do you have screenshots of those attacks? It would be interesting to see the MCV of those attacks.

Sorry, I didn't make screenshots.

[Helpless]

In the combat results screen for the first combat (30->174) is the original CV value shown for the Soviet (30) fogged or calculated?

fogged

In this server game as German, I see a lot of combats where the final calculated CV for the Soviet unit is 300% to 580% higher than the CV. In my PBEM game as Soviet, in the handful of attacks I made, the difference between the German CV and MCV was generally in the range of 60% to 150% and usually below 100%.

The difference how CV and MCV are calculated is very significant. They are not even on the same level of magnitude. This is all related to the difference applying modifiers for the MCV and CV.

[morvael]

Fort level went down, so the MCV went down as well.

[morvael]

By the way, I think WitE formulas, with good random rolls, will allow for a serious inflating of CV during combat, though if x6 is in reach I'm not sure.

[rmonical]

ORIGINAL: morvael
Fort level went down, so the MCV went down as well.

I ran a few variations on this attack. In the first case, the same corps (with a little rearranging and reinforcement), counterattacks. The attacking MCV is 249% of the CV. The defending fort goes away and yet the Soviet defending MCV is still higher than the CV.

Next I reduced the attacking force to what would let the stack hold. Attacking with three strong divisions fails, but still eliminates the fort.

Attacking with three weak divisions allows the fort to hold.

After the fort is reduced with three divisions, the next combat shows the expected results.

Trying to find the minimum force that would win, three strong and three weak divisions would usually fail, but I did get one extreme outlier shown in the next combat.

Finally, I ran a few tests to confirm that six strong rifle divisions were enough to dislodge the (dug in) German panzer corps.

Something just seems off here. Where is Rendulic? Do German defenders get leader bonuses in summer 1941?

[morvael]

Element number advantage. Those units are stronger than their CV shows. A flaw of the system. Partially addressed in WitW, after I have shown a special test case scenario with 3 situations of 6 CV unit vs 8 CV unit (6CV but increased due to then-present defense bonus), with identical leaders, identical equipment and supply but different number of elements offset by morale and experience. Unit with 2x the number of elements (ge rifle squads to be precise) won about 80% of the time (in 30 trials with full random), whereas with equal elements 6.67%, and at a disadvantage 0%. This is what gives the Soviet side an advantage - huge numbers of elements firing and causing death and destruction not proportional to their impact on CV.

[morvael]

This can be seen on a simple example: at equal morale and experience a Tiger is worth 0.09 CV as is T-34. In a 1:1 combat the Tiger will win most of the time, as fire combat depends on armor, gun etc. The same applies other way round. With proper morale and experience adjustment you can make 1 Tiger worth 25 T-34 in CV, but they will win most of the time due to volume of fire. Remember, CV is not something like strength on board game counters. It's far from it, as it's only one component of the combat system. It decides how long the combat will last (until the ratio will not become too unfavourable) and whether there will be retreat. But the fire combat decides how much that CV will change during combat (and a lot of random rolls, some unfortunately more important than others like a single failed leader skill roll which can cause CV to drop by half). You can't rely on CV only, you must always take element numbers into consideration. This makes combat in this series an art or magic, to get a feel for it, you need a lot of experience and a sixth sense.

[Michael T]

This makes combat in this series an art or magic, to get a feel for it, you need a lot of experience and a sixth sense.

So true.

[Mike13z50]

I've noticed that 3 Sov Corps will almost always retreat 1 Ger Div, no matter what the CV says. Likewise 3 Sov Div will retreate 1 Ger Regiment.

This explains why.

[rmonical]

Element number advantage. Those units are stronger than their CV shows.

So when the Soviets attack with a large number of units, the element advantage is reflected in the Soviet MCV or the element disadvantage reflected in the German MCV? Looking at the current game as German, I routinely see Soviet defending MCVs 200% to 400% greater than their CVs in the absence of terrain and fortification effects. As can be seen, there is no element advantage in most cases. I'm still looking for my first '41 Soviet attack in either game where the German MCV is 200% of CV (I did find a Hungarian defense where the MCV was 200% of CV).

I looked through some old '42 PBEM turns. Same thing - German defenders never get a 4x bump (small sample) of MCV verses CV.

[Michael T]

There comes a point where CV makes no difference and the only thing that matters is numbers. Big advantage for the Reds.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

Element number advantage. Those units are stronger than their CV shows.

So when the Soviets attack with a large number of units, the element advantage is reflected in the Soviet MCV or the element disadvantage reflected in the German MCV? Looking at the current game as German, I routinely see Soviet defending MCVs 200% to 400% greater than their CVs in the absence of terrain and fortification effects. As can be seen, there is no element advantage in most cases. I'm still looking for my first '41 Soviet attack in either game where the German MCV is 200% of CV (I did find a Hungarian defense where the MCV was 200% of CV).

I looked through some old '42 PBEM turns. Same thing - German defenders never get a 4x bump (small sample) of MCV verses CV.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

There comes a point where CV makes no difference and the only thing that matters is numbers. Big advantage for the Reds.

Yup, as i wrote about in my combat system synopsis a year and a year and a half ago. The attacking side has an inherit advanatage in the wite system. U can attack from more hexes in almost all cases so depending on reserve activation u usually bound to have more elements. See more in the synopsis for numbers and maths. Add the larger russian units later on, well the math gets worse. Also as the attacker ur the phasing side, so u can adjust ur HQs better for better rolls too.
Too some extend u need the effect to get the ball rolling later on as russians as the german has better CV from having higher moral and exp so u need some thing to offset that advanatage.

Any how its the same effect u see when ppl take Leningrad or Moscow even if fortified with a few 1000s men as losses. The ability of concentrating firepower/mass of elements on hexes/attacks.


Very few board games has 2-1 as good odds and then u get the possibilty of removing forts and use mass of firepower too as its MCV that counts. While there in the system is limits on the firepower u can use as the attacker. If u an just equal the defender in losses as u have more elements as the attacker, having equal disrupted/damage/killed troop then pushes the MCV in ur direction.
Futher more the system is very 2-1 centric meaning there is no real advanatage to try and get 6-1 or 10-1 odd as in most other games. Where the higher the odd u get usualy it translate into some form of less casulties on the attacker/higher on defend given rolls. At leased the effect of higher odds is minimal in wite, i've never heard of any going for it cuz they thot they'd get an advanatge out of it.
German ops tempo live off this in 41/42 too if u know how to use it. Why use airpower to get 6-1 odds if u can live off 2-1 odds. There is no incentive to get higher odds so why use needless force. Not only that, u even get if u fall below 2-1 odds a chance of a recce result so the incentive is more on going at only just needed force to get 2-1 than for going higher.

Cest la vie,

Rasmus

[Bozo_the_Clown]

I' adding a couple of screenshots from T8 in my game with rmonical because I find the topic interesting. We all agree that the combat system is somewhat opaque and relies on intuition. This, in my opinion, is much easier for the Soviets. The following attacks are typical for SHC. Get as many units as possible from the same army to attack exposed tank and mech units in clear terrain. Preferably in front of other stacks of Axis units so that the retreating units rout.

I leave it to others to explain what exactly happens during these attacks.