Islands of Destiny: RA 5.0 Japanese Side

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Dan is an excellent player who is first and foremost a Gentleman.

Simple reality is that he bit off FAAAAR more then he could chew. He didn't go far enough in his Sumatra Gambit. Should have gone far farther and never allowed me to get back into the match. He has me dead-to-rights but then blinked. As stated back at the time of hte landing I immediately saw the chance for opportunity and it was going to result in a massive Allied Surrender in Mar--April 1943.

I'm tired of the Mod comments Hans. This Mod is no where near Scenario 2. Sits pretty firmly between 1 and 2. Think that has been pretty well settled in the RA 6.0 Fact--Fiction Thread.

In ANY GAME an Allied Player staging late-1942 massed invasion faces the chance for great glory or great disaster. This would have ended in disaster.

I applaud Dan's work and his attempt to swing for the fences. Had he included Palembang, Singers, or Java the plan would have won the war for the Allies.

Well, a setback but not a disaster. I have said before that other than the loss of the Allied carriers the Allied player should be able to recover from this sort of setback in 1942. And, he did force you to pretty much close up shop in the Pacific. Any gambit that can force the Japanese to refocus his attention from the offensive should pay off in late 43. Not to take away from the credit you deserve for quickly seeing the potential for decisive action. You got caught with your pants down but covered your bare bottom pretty well in the end.[;)]

Quite frankly, Dan's biggest mistake and you will see that I have told him when you read his AAR is that he agreed to the HR preventing strat bombing before 1944. I believe a better rule is just to limit strat bombing in China for that period. By agreeing to the rule Dan negated any real purpose for an incursion into the DEI so early in the game. Why stick your nose into that cauldron if you cannot bomb the vulnerable Dutch oil. And due to the HR you had no need to cover your exposed oil facilities with fighters so had many more planes to use in the front lines. I think it is a terrible HR for the Allie player to agree to for this reason. This gambit aside, the Allied player should always have the option of a carrier raid on Palembang at any point in the game-forcing the Japanese player to use resources to defend it.

Even if Dan lost the campaign and took significant losses, if he had bombed the oil centers in Medan and those around Plembang the cost to him would have been worth it compared to the disaster to Japan from losing these production centers early in the game.

Siboret Island is the key here and should not have been grabbed by such a weak force on Dan's behalf. And, I should say that every JFB should pay heed and garrison the heck out of this potential level 9 airfield.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Dan is an excellent player who is first and foremost a Gentleman.

Simple reality is that he bit off FAAAAR more then he could chew. He didn't go far enough in his Sumatra Gambit. Should have gone far farther and never allowed me to get back into the match. He has me dead-to-rights but then blinked. As stated back at the time of hte landing I immediately saw the chance for opportunity and it was going to result in a massive Allied Surrender in Mar--April 1943.

I'm tired of the Mod comments Hans. This Mod is no where near Scenario 2. Sits pretty firmly between 1 and 2. Think that has been pretty well settled in the RA 6.0 Fact--Fiction Thread.

In ANY GAME an Allied Player staging late-1942 massed invasion faces the chance for great glory or great disaster. This would have ended in disaster.

I applaud Dan's work and his attempt to swing for the fences. Had he included Palembang, Singers, or Java the plan would have won the war for the Allies.

Want to apologize to Hans here. My ire was directed at those who don't know the Mod and not him directly. With all the work that has been done getting ready for 6.0 to be released I think I am fairly thin skinned at the moment. Hans got the full brunt of my over-reaction and I generally don't do that to any member of the Forum with the exception of one.

Just wanted to say that.

[John 3rd]

Mr. Sutton: I totally agree to the 'he could have recovered' viewpoint expressed by you. however, the destruction of all those units there AND the five Regiment/Brigades at Noumea would have had vast complications to the Allied manpower pool. The Americans could easily have continued but New Zealand, India, and Britain would have been in deep kimche!

As to 'closing up shop' in the Pacific I had already done that prior to his move into Sumatra. This player was OVERCOMMITTED in the Sought Pacific due to reading the tea leaves wrong with where his blow would fall. Thankfully there were enough forces in the Western DEI and Burma to fight a delaying action enabling reinforcement to arrive and begin the counter-offensive.

The HR might be extreme but it also kept me from destroying China's Industry from Day ONE. Curious to see what people think might be an appropriate date for such a HR to end?

Your analysis of the bases grabbed and lack of AF building is spot-on. Biggest advantage I had was his ignoring of Great Nicobar, Car Nicobar, and Siboret. By not working these bases it enabled the Japanese to focus on Western Sumatra safely and begin to punch up the eastern side as well.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: moore4807

John,

I'm curious what your plans are, are you going to take 6.0 out for a spin now? Do another AAR with it (hopefully)?

Any way you and CR are BOTH good and wise teachers. When you were kind enough to ask my opinion on the aircraft pools, I gave it some thought and now after reading HansBolter's answer to Sangeli. I would like to modify my answer...

A lot of the battle locations are determined by the players action plans, I consider John3rd a superior tactician and while it is true that the Japanese have superiority in 1942, even John cannot cover everything - and that is where players like CR show thier brilliance. The moves CR made were copied and repreated by many including me in my PBEM game. For instance in my case it was blunting and then repelling the Jap advance in Burma using mostly British and Aussie aircraft & troops and chasing LarryF back down to the peninsula, the cost to me was the USN exposing itself by hitting bases in the Sothern Pacific mostly to keep LarryF from rushing everything over to Burma to take it back. So far I'm successfully attacking but bogging down in the jungles and losing some Burma/British troops to withdrawl is going to make it dicey for a while, until I can reinforce.

It's all Risk/Reward as always but CR literally threw the kitchen sink at John game wise, just a tad too early IMHO. That he nearly pulled it off is quite impressive and the SRA is the key to the war is true, but where and when to strike are the vital marks to watch. I really enjoyed following the match and hope to see them both soon on these pages shortly.

PS - How is the flooding in CO now? The story dropped off the face of the national news so we could see stupid things like Emmy memorial controversies... (groan...)

Cogent commentary Sir and I cannot argue with any of it.

Yep: I will be taking RA 6.0 out for a run. There will, of course, be an AAR to go with it.

AARs are difficult to maintain. A player puts everything out there and armchair quarterbacks always know better or second guess. Additionally the commentary can be quite brutal. This is one of the reasons Dan decided to stop. He was having 'issues' with topics, comments, and criticism within his AAR and our game. He has not given me permission to read it yet but I will go through all of it and look forward to calling out some individuals who cross this line that he alluded to. Many people tend to forget that when games end AARs are then read by the former opposing player.

We welcome Dan over here whenever he is ready to take a look. In re-reading the last 12-15 pages of the AAR, I think he'll have all sorts of things to say. Looking forward to that. He is a good human being and gentlemen to the Nth degree.

[zuluhour]

There's a line? [X(]

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

There's a line? [X(]

Since I haven't gone over to read that side I do not know the specifics. I just know what he wrote me in emails that shall not be Posted here. He alluded to it in at least one I Posted in this Thread but we do have a strong personal commentary between us during the game. Not specifics but general conversation until something really sparks.

The whole 'gamey/not gamey' use of AKs as Pickets is a topic that he and I don't agree on but when he explained his issues with the game engine for immediate reactions by TFs to flee an area, it sort of made sense. Don't buy into it totally because I feel that the tactic is simply wrong. If it is done with warships--OK but it is not OK if it is Merchies. Plenty of precedent in 1945 with the use of Picket DDs at Okinawa. The could defend themselves and destroy aircraft. Merchants cannot. My opinion...
[;)]

[zuluhour]

pretty harsh. withdrawn.

[zuluhour]

+1 on the merchants. Actually I can see Japan using them around the home islands and maybe central Pacific and elsewhere, but not the allies. Maybe, maybe, an allied (rare) AMC.[8D]

[witpqs]

You asked about strat bombing.

Playing a Babes 28-C game. No HR on strat bombing. For one thing, Babes has converted a modest amount of supply at Chinese bases into daily supply. For another, my IJ opponent (Andav) has done the strat bombing and I just sucked it up and lived with it. Try to counter it. If you can you can. If you can't you can't.

When I strat bombed oil early in the game it was barely effective at all. Crews were not good enough, I guess. Only knocked out a little.

Edit: Oops - meant that crews weren't good enough.

[John 3rd]

Appreciate the thoughts there. What have others seen/experienced?

[JocMeister]

Playing a DBB game the only input I can give is that China still sucks as the allies. Despite having about 30-40% of the Chinese forces intentionally and unintentionally destroyed. Supply has been plummeting from day one. About 3 months in flying missions were impossible due to lack of supply. We are now in october and I have less the 15k supply in the whole of China.

If you allow stratbombing in China is just a free give away after a few months when the allied player cannot fly CAP any more. Supply would dwindle even faster.

My own opinion on China is that its pretty much undefendable for the allies IF the Japanese player makes a dedicated effort and rebase the bomber force there. Even in DBB I lose about 1000-2000 casualties PER TURN in aerial ground bombings. Even in rough terrain. And the bombings of course burn supply.

I would never play a game where strat bombing is allowed in China. It would take only a months or two for the Japanese to knock out all HI/LI and China would collapse even faster than it does now.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

The HR might be extreme but it also kept me from destroying China's Industry from Day ONE. Curious to see what people think might be an appropriate date for such a HR to end?

My opinion? Something to the effect of "No strategic bombing of LI/HI in China period. No daylight pr nighttime strategic bombing by the Allies until January 1, 1943." seems to capture the middle ground.

The Japanese won't burn out China on day one in exchange for unrealistic massing of Allied 4EBs to hit Palembang oil as soon as the Japanese take it.

Nighttime strategic bombing is a different cat and still needs to be worked out.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

AARs are difficult to maintain. A player puts everything out there and armchair quarterbacks always know better or second guess. Additionally the commentary can be quite brutal. This is one of the reasons Dan decided to stop. He was having 'issues' with topics, comments, and criticism within his AAR and our game. He has not given me permission to read it yet but I will go through all of it and look forward to calling out some individuals who cross this line that he alluded to. Many people tend to forget that when games end AARs are then read by the former opposing player.

We welcome Dan over here whenever he is ready to take a look. In re-reading the last 12-15 pages of the AAR, I think he'll have all sorts of things to say. Looking forward to that. He is a good human being and gentlemen to the Nth degree.

I've received a few PMs from Dan that were uncharacteristically excoriating, John. Most of them dealt with him feeling aggrieved that I could dare suggest-in his AAR- that he may be (even unintentionally) using merchant pickets in a manner that he foreswore he would not. He was angry that I had the temerity to question even the appearance of inadvertent impropriety. He was not his gentlemanly self.

It was doubly annoying that he said he received a PM from someone (left unnamed) that I had, in my posts in your AAR, suggested that may be using the 'soaking off' tactics. So someone here took it upon themselves to PM Dan about my comments / questions / concerns voiced here. I consider that low.

He also indicated that he thought his reputation on the forum should forestall any suggestion of impropriety. I told him that no one gets a carte blanche. Many experienced players on the forum have engaged in behavior that is inconsistent with their reputation from time to time. Usually this behavior is couched as a brilliant tactical or strategic move-we all have seen examples of egotism wrapped in the veneer of brilliance.

I haven't heard back from Dan since we exchanged some PMs. I don't expect to do so for some time either-he's got some significant issues in his family life to contend with.

Dan was burnt out, defensive and going through what must be a very difficult time in his life. I still think the world of him and wish him nothing but the best.

[zuluhour]

I'm still looking around for the line. What color is it? And where do you look for it? Damn I'm bored and need a turn! On a different tact, I would still like to see what happens in this one. That was one surprise move on Dan's part.

[JohnDillworth]

Perhaps Dan is a bit burnt but if the Mod leaves one player with no aircraft, and the other player with practically unlimited aircraft, I could see whee that would not be much fun. John, this is a wonderful mod and a great, interesting historical what-if but the aircraft balance seems a bit off. I think this is true for most of the mods. Are there any that give the Allies more planes?

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Mr. Sutton: I totally agree to the 'he could have recovered' viewpoint expressed by you. however, the destruction of all those units there AND the five Regiment/Brigades at Noumea would have had vast complications to the Allied manpower pool. The Americans could easily have continued but New Zealand, India, and Britain would have been in deep kimche!

As to 'closing up shop' in the Pacific I had already done that prior to his move into Sumatra. This player was OVERCOMMITTED in the Sought Pacific due to reading the tea leaves wrong with where his blow would fall. Thankfully there were enough forces in the Western DEI and Burma to fight a delaying action enabling reinforcement to arrive and begin the counter-offensive.

The HR might be extreme but it also kept me from destroying China's Industry from Day ONE. Curious to see what people think might be an appropriate date for such a HR to end?

Your analysis of the bases grabbed and lack of AF building is spot-on. Biggest advantage I had was his ignoring of Great Nicobar, Car Nicobar, and Siboret. By not working these bases it enabled the Japanese to focus on Western Sumatra safely and begin to punch up the eastern side as well.

Well, a blow but in mid to late 1944 I find there is a good surplus of Allied units and can't find a use for all of mine. American units are easily rebuilt and New Zealand, Canadian and most Australian units are of little need. (except Australian tank and base units along with about three strong Aussie divisions). In fact I have yet to find the PP to buy out any Canadian unit. You can even lose British units and not replace them (except armor, they are precious). The big hit is the Indian army but even with the losses he will be strong enough. If the Allied player gains control of the sea then, he can win with about the half the troops on hand by 1945. You just don't need many divisions when you are bypassing Japanese bases.

If I were Dan in this situation, I simply would not rebuild any unit but the lost tank units. The precious devices are better used filling out the units left over and reinforcements due to come on.

I would change your HR to read "no strat bombing in China until 1944" and leave the rest be. If the Japanese player allows the Allies to get within strat range before 1944 then he deserves to get hammered.[;)] Especially with RA or scen #2.

There is pretty good evidence that Dan just tried this too early. The Allies are not swimming in engineer and construction units in 42 and that type of unit and base support are critical in a move such as this. Also, I really think the Allies need to have a lot of LSTs to pull this off. You really need LSTs to supply and build up a 1 port base like Siboret. If the Allies take it, they have to build it up fast and that is hard to do with out the big construction units and the precious LST.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

AARs are difficult to maintain. A player puts everything out there and armchair quarterbacks always know better or second guess. Additionally the commentary can be quite brutal. This is one of the reasons Dan decided to stop. He was having 'issues' with topics, comments, and criticism within his AAR and our game. He has not given me permission to read it yet but I will go through all of it and look forward to calling out some individuals who cross this line that he alluded to. Many people tend to forget that when games end AARs are then read by the former opposing player.

We welcome Dan over here whenever he is ready to take a look. In re-reading the last 12-15 pages of the AAR, I think he'll have all sorts of things to say. Looking forward to that. He is a good human being and gentlemen to the Nth degree.

I've received a few PMs from Dan that were uncharacteristically excoriating, John. Most of them dealt with him feeling aggrieved that I could dare suggest-in his AAR- that he may be (even unintentionally) using merchant pickets in a manner that he foreswore he would not. He was angry that I had the temerity to question even the appearance of inadvertent impropriety. He was not his gentlemanly self.

It was doubly annoying that he said he received a PM from someone (left unnamed) that I had, in my posts in your AAR, suggested that may be using the 'soaking off' tactics. So someone here took it upon themselves to PM Dan about my comments / questions / concerns voiced here. I consider that low.

He also indicated that he thought his reputation on the forum should forestall any suggestion of impropriety. I told him that no one gets a carte blanche. Many experienced players on the forum have engaged in behavior that is inconsistent with their reputation from time to time. Usually this behavior is couched as a brilliant tactical or strategic move-we all have seen examples of egotism wrapped in the veneer of brilliance.

I haven't heard back from Dan since we exchanged some PMs. I don't expect to do so for some time either-he's got some significant issues in his family life to contend with.

Dan was burnt out, defensive and going through what must be a very difficult time in his life. I still think the world of him and wish him nothing but the best.

I don't know who PM'd Dan but I'm not surprised. He was not merely accused in this AAR, he was convicted in the tone of some posts as I remember the discussion (I have not looked back to refresh my memory). This in spite of the fact that the problem was not important enough to John to report it to Michael for possible bug-fix, which I twice suggested. I thought I sensed Dan being over-sensitive in his AAR so I'm sure he was stressed from RL but I am also sure that hearing about the soakers discussion would have really PO'd him in any event.

I didn't see the discussion about being not giving him carte blanche. I saw the discussion framed in such a way that a player is only allowed to use convoys in very specific ways regardless of his judgement of the tactical and logistical situation. I think that aspect of the discussion was greatly influenced by Dan's openly declared practice of using picket ships, and the disagreement that Dan and John had/have over Dan's practice. As best I remember Dan's (reported/claimed) use of picket ships has evolved over time, and he might have actually used merchants for that duty in the past, which probably further influenced the discussion.

A further issue. I agree that we have to be extremely, even exceptionally careful about revealing what is in players' AARs. I am sometimes uncomfortable with posts that I see in an AAR or in non-AAR threads that reference material in an (another) AAR. Sometimes posters are not as circumspect as they think they are being when they make references to AAR material. But when a player is outright accused of cheating, why is it low for a reader to inform the accused player that they have been so accused? In this case there was more than just the question raised or a theoretical discussion, there was unabashed accusation to the point of asserting fact with virtually no other possibility. I do not know what was PM'd and certainly OpSec violations would be wrong. But informing Dan was not wrong and should have been expected, given the number of people who were reading this AAR. Someone was bound to do it and thinking that the extreme ire of the conversation would remain confidential was stupid.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Perhaps Dan is a bit burnt but if the Mod leaves one player with no aircraft, and the other player with practically unlimited aircraft

Thats not mod specific. Thats AE. I honestly don´t understand where the myth that CRs lack of airframes is because of RA started.

The biggest allied challenge in this game is nursing your air force. Even in 44 and 45.

[khyberbill]

The biggest allied challenge in this game is nursing your air force. Even in 44 and 45.

I am now up to August 45 in my game with Zachary. And I lack fighters. A few P47N, P51D and P38L squads are at full strength only because I have a lot of squadrons flying various P39s and P40s. I would kill kill for an extra F6F-6! The first squadron of Bearcats was slaughtered over Tokyo.

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I've received a few PMs from Dan that were uncharacteristically excoriating, John. Most of them dealt with him feeling aggrieved that I could dare suggest-in his AAR- that he may be (even unintentionally) using merchant pickets in a manner that he foreswore he would not. He was angry that I had the temerity to question even the appearance of inadvertent impropriety. He was not his gentlemanly self.

It was doubly annoying that he said he received a PM from someone (left unnamed) that I had, in my posts in your AAR, suggested that may be using the 'soaking off' tactics. So someone here took it upon themselves to PM Dan about my comments / questions / concerns voiced here. I consider that low.

He also indicated that he thought his reputation on the forum should forestall any suggestion of impropriety. I told him that no one gets a carte blanche. Many experienced players on the forum have engaged in behavior that is inconsistent with their reputation from time to time. Usually this behavior is couched as a brilliant tactical or strategic move-we all have seen examples of egotism wrapped in the veneer of brilliance.

I never mentioned in the thread but I thought Nemo was over the top when he was speaking about John 3 personality traits which I felt if they were in my direction I'd consider them personal attacks. I also felt there was mention of the possibility of someone breaking Opsec and clueing John in on moves. If it was my AAR I would have put a stop to it and was surprised both went unchecked not only by the OP but contributors as well.

My reading comprehension is on par with my poor sentence structure so someone please tell me if I read it wrong.

Super post as always Chickenboy.