HQ's and mortars

[dazkaz15]

This is a quick screen shot to show that HQ's and Mortars have become far to resilient to being over run, and close range fire, in the latest public beta patch.

[dazkaz15]

I just wanted to add to this, that I think the HQ's and Mortars should only be more resilient once they are deployed at range from the enemy.
When moving or close range (<300m) they should be just as vulnerable as any infantry unit.

This would help to simulate that the HQ's and mortars don't actually need to see the enemy, so would be deployed into local depressions, behind cover, or well hidden, that can be found in virtually every 100m square, anywhere.

When in close quarters battle though (<300m)they would have to see the enemy to fire their personal weapons, so should be just as vulnerable as any infantry unit, in these circumstances.

[dazkaz15]

Hmmm problem with this is not all HQ's are the same, or Mortars come to that.
Was just thinking about Peiper's HQ as an example. It has 8 Panthers and is a very capable offensive unit in its own right.

So I'm not so sure about this now, as I was just thinking about 45 men sat in, and around a command tent, making the most of local depressions, and cover that can't be represented on the map due to its scale, and taking no active part in the battle raging around it because they are too busy conducting the battle.

Anyway its up for discussion I guess.

Anyone else finding this a problem?

[jimcarravall]

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

Hmmm problem with this is not all HQ's are the same, or Mortars come to that.
Was just thinking about Peiper's HQ as an example. It has 8 Panthers and is a very capable offensive unit in its own right.

So I'm not so sure about this now, as I was just thinking about 45 men sat in, and around a command tent, making the most of local depressions, and cover that can't be represented on the map due to its scale, and taking no active part in the battle raging around it because they are too busy conducting the battle.

Anyway its up for discussion I guess.

Anyone else finding this a problem?

One might consider what the 45 "men" represent: significantly less than 3-percent of a company's "line unit" strength or the equivalent of two squads (afaik not modeled effectively in the game engine).

It's only at a tactical level game (not modeled yet) where 45-people / two squads can turn a battle.

If anyone has ideas on how to do this, there's an effort to model a "tactical level" command ops that could use their expertise.

Otherwise, at an operational level, I'd like to hear speculation on where the designer could allow 45 more organized people to make a difference.

[dazkaz15]

I'm going to withdraw this potential problem.

I made a little test scenario today to test for the HQ and Mortar issue, and I can't find anything wrong with the results, so Ill just put it down to a few unique occurrences.

[skarp]

I've had problems myself - especially assaulting Nijmegen when I had one hq hold up 2 para coys for about 3 hours.

HQs could and did fight in their own self defence but this was probably more common in the German army than others, partly down to attitude of arming cooks and clerks and expecting them to fight and partly down to all the desperate situations German hqs found themselves in.

Right now I'm trying to over run 1FJ Army HQ - I'll let you know how it goes.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: skarp

I've had problems myself - especially assaulting Nijmegen when I had one hq hold up 2 para coys for about 3 hours.

Right now I'm trying to over run 1FJ Army HQ - I'll let you know how it goes.

Yes that is one of the ones I had trouble with as well.

In the tests I have been doing though, I have noticed that most of the ones that were giving me issues, that I noticed in my game, were all set to Tenacious for their stubbornness, and in the tests I did I changed this setting to see the difference it made.

It makes a huge difference.
Units with tenacious setting are very hard to rout, and tend to just pull back with a retreat, thus making you chase them all over the map.
As a lot of the infantry units that I was up against were low quality, (other than the SS ones, which you can always recognise because of the black background) It made these HQ's and mortars that had this stubbornness setting, seem a lot too tough in comparison.
I'm guessing that these particular units put up a very good defence historically, which is why they have this setting?
So my conclusion after probably about 5 hours of different tests for it, was that everything is working as intended here.

[skarp]

Thanks dazkaz15 - that'll be it. I read yesterday while skimming the HTTR guide that Henke is tough. Even now I don't think 4 bns are too many to take Nijmegen rapidly enough to block the bridges before reinforcements arrive.

[Phoenix100]

6 battalions needed in Nijmegan, I think. If the route south from Arnhem isn't blocked by the brit paras then even 6 isn't going to be enough to allow you to take Nijmegan centre, let alone the bridges.

[dazkaz15]

I think I would drive straight for the blocking positions on the bridges, as my priority objective, with a concentrated push, or even an infiltration, even if it means bypassing a lot of the defenders to do so. Then start to squeeze out the centre once these were in position.

[skarp]

Well I've done it with 3 and without the Arnhem bridge, though I have other ways of holding up reinforcements for a few hours. I added a forth to ensure Henke does not escape. I find the centre is the best direction to attack either rail or road bridge as it provides cover and the position for flanking attacks, which for best results I micromanage each unit and hold no bn reserve. 3 or 4 mortars and 75mm arty for suppressing fire - as continuous as I can make it. This way I can dominate the bridges by around 1700 hrs but clearing the town may take all night. I'm not proud of it - I micromanage too much and sometimes think I gain an unfair advantage by doing so. I've tried setting regt command to attack but they spend so long messing around that no attack has been launched even by 1900hrs.

[dazkaz15]

Well I micromanage a lot as well to get the best results in situations like this.
I still enjoy the ability to move large formations tactically, or to attack on a broad front with larger Bn or Regimental formations.
Just because the game gives us the ability to use these large formations, It doesn't always mean it is the best approach to achieve an objective.

The problem with this scenario is the huge number of units, and the relatively low Command Capacity of the ON Map Boss.
I often find myself with a 2 hour command delay, and that requires quite a bit of forward planning.

One of the things I hate most about using larger formations though is the way they want to go into all round defence once they achieve their objective, and often go wandering off quite a long way in road column formation to achieve this, and more often than not end up wandering straight into an enemy unit that you have just pushed back off the objective or another close by, and the way they bunch up while doing this, thus presenting a lovely concentration for enemy artillery.

I think this is quite bad design for these orders. I would much prefer they defend or re-org in situ, or stay in the formation you set for the attack or move.

I think Ill put in a feature request for this as a check box in the orders setting.

[skarp]

I'd love to be able to set up an attack and then return all units to HQs to run the actual assaults. Also to be able to alter AI chosen waypoints when the AI's done something daft. And as you say the choice of movements when an objective has been 'secured' is often dumb and wrecks a successful AI run attack by blundering units in column into deployed enemy forces.

[skarp]

Going back to Henke - is he really meant to be so tough or numerous? I thought a patrol heard there were only 19 Germans at the road bridge in the afternoon. Only 1 bn 508 were assigned to take the bridges there, and only one company attacked around 2000 but were too late to forestall the arrival of SS reinforcements. Here we are having difficulty with several battalions attacking much earlier. [&:]