Pricing Suggestion

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Tomn
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Tomn »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: mekjak
When Valve first started experimenting with sales, one of their games that had its price slashed by 75% saw a revenue spike of something like 400% - that's revenue, not # of units sold. Pretty much the entire PC games industry has followed suit, and even console publishers are doing similar things. It's clear that Matrix/Slitherine feel strongly about staying the course, more or less, but I think the rest of the games industry have moved far ahead.

A couple of things to add, as this thread continues to increase. First, for folks who have already expressed their opinion on pricing - we have heard you, as JD also said here: fb.asp?m=3418024

I see a lot of new names in this thread, but also names that pop up in every price thread that has ever appeared, whether specific to a release or relating to all our prices, ever. For the latter group, I'd respectfully suggest that you're beating a dead horse.

We've tried many different price levels and discounts over the 14 years that we've been in business. Our data is not based on one price point. We're also very much aware of Steam's pricing strategy and also that it does not actually work for all games. It has received a lot of publicity and I realize that as only a few companies have released sales numbers, there's a limited amount of information out there as far as what works and what doesn't for pricing. It's worth considering though that we may also be considering the data mentioned here and factoring it into our decisions. Our job is to do the best we can for our developers and we would price Command at $.50 if we felt that would maximize their return.

While a lot of posts here assume that we are closed-minded, it's not that - it's that we base these decisions on data rather than philosophy and the data supports the price points we have chosen. If the data changes - either our data or sufficient data from external sources for similar games (and there aren't that many similar games), we'll change our pricing as well. This is not an ideological battle for us, but rather a matter of making the right business decision so that these kinds of games can continue to be made. When Matrix Games was founded, the future of these games was far from secure and releases were few and far between. I would argue that we've played a large role in the massive increase in the choices within this market over the last decade and that has benefited both developers and customers.

Regards,

- Erik

While I'm sure you have indeed done your homework, I believe I can safely say that the reason why so many continue to loudly disagree with you about this is that your responses (or at least, the responses of certain members of your team who may not necessarily represent the entire team, of course) indicate a few blind spots in your collection of data and your analysis. In particular, there doesn't seem to have been much research done on games in other small niches, apparently due to the belief that wargames are so unique and so different that any comparison with anything that isn't a wargame is a complete waste of time (I am a bit curious here - what games that AREN'T wargames have you considered in your research about what works and what doesn't work?) In effect, it seems that the data is glaringly incomplete in important sectors, sectors which are lightly waved aside as having absolutely no relevance - despite the fact that very good arguments can be, and have been made pointing to their relevance.

Then, too, there is the fact that your years of long experience are constantly bought up to show that "We know what we are doing, and we don't need to change." Not a terrible argument precisely, and certainly that experience is far from entirely valueless, but at the same time one can't help but think that centuries of experience with line-of-battle ships didn't help the Prince of Wales very much, nor help traditional weavers stay in business when the cotton mills started going up. Again, that experience is certainly valuable, but in this day and age it's by no means going to be a panacea by which you can convince all dissenters to keep mum.

This is what's pointed to when accusations are made by frustrated people of "close-mindedness." To be honest, if you'd simply sat back and said "We've done the research and we don't think it's right" and left it at that and never said anything more, you probably wouldn't have quite as much surliness - they may disagree, but they've got nothing to match against but one word against another. But members of your team past and present HAVE responded, and their rationales appear to have significant holes in them - holes which have not been explained in any satisfactory manner and which have generally been dismissed out of hand. You do not, of course, owe your community any explanation - indeed, you are not particularly obligated even to comment on any pricing disputes that come up. Having made the comments you have, however, I'm afraid you're going to have to be resigned to a certain amount of griping until the holes in question have been patched up to the satisfaction of most (not all, naturally!)

On a side note, in response to that last note of yours - you have every right to be justifiably proud of keeping the wargaming flame going during a time when it guttered and dimmed. On the other hand, however, adventure games are a genre that literally DIED in the recent past, and were assumed to be incapable of ever rising again, with much ink spilled to explain why. They are now back and prouder than ever, with no one company being responsible for their protection or their resuscitation. Matrix Games has managed something significant by keeping wargaming alive, but it does seem provably incorrect to say that without Matrix Games, wargaming would be dead now and forever. Had Matrix Games gone down along with all other wargaming companies back in the day, who is to say that market forces would not have led them to a glorious resurgence in the market today?
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Terminus
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Terminus »

And talk, talk, talk, talk...[8|]
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
Tomn
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Tomn »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And talk, talk, talk, talk...[8|]

Well, if you'd like to respond to anything I have to say, no matter how long-winded, I'll be happy to read it through and give my response as much thought as I can.
Pii
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Pii »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: Pii

ORIGINAL: JRyan

People speak with their wallets, those of us that wanted this game have done so...if it is too much then get something else...in a years time we will still be here...[:D]

Edit: I just remembered many griped about harpoon's price also. I guess this is normal.

And one final thought for the night, what if Matrix has a big hit on their hands? It would be nice for the Modern Naval Warfare Genre. Personally, I don't expect to see this on Wal-Mart/Best Buy shelves but you never know....

Not if Matrix has anything to do with it but I do recall Harpoon being on Best Buys shelve because that is were I bought it. So what make this game so special it wouldn't sell there like its cousin did years ago?

Probably because shelf space costs money. And games such as this just won't make enough in brick and mortar stores.

Yes, the store would get a piece of the action too. MG makes more money using its current model. Don't know how much more

The last game from Matrix I bought off the shelf was Uncommon Valor. Haven't seen any wargame in store shelves since.

The point isn't Best buy shelf space cost but that this kind of game does and has sold well in the mass market.
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Titanwarrior89
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Titanwarrior89 »

The game does have a high cost.....but has anyone looked at Battlefront prices.  Their not cheap.  The way I see it, Matrix has ever right to charge what they want for their product(their not the gas company/electric).  If you can afford it excellent, but if the game is out of your price range-then you can't buy it, period.  Just like a lower to a higher grade auto.  After reading the thread some seem to indicate that they are entitled to this game no matter what the cost.  I for one drive a low end car, why, I can't afford a higher price car.  We don't bash them.  I just don't buy the car.

So you might want to give them a break.  I think some are upset because they want the game but can't afford it and their getting personal.  I bought the game(and I am far from rich)but if I didn't have the money....I would just moved along.

Note: If my wife knew she would kill me! I'll admit it, I'am a game Whore. I need counseling.[:D][X(]
"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"
Pii
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Pii »


So who wastes money on a bad game? Would you buy say, the Amiga version of SSI's Gettysburg? Pay $50 or $10, won't change the fact that the 2nd day scenario is unplayable.


WTF LOL ? Well to start with I'm sure EVERYONE of us has wasted money on a bad game and since I retired my Amiga years ago no I wouldn't and that the stupidest example I've ever heard. But I have bought many games I would not have on Steam if they hadn't had a sale and at a certain point I've even bought games other had claimed were bad.
What about Braveheart? That was a freakin bad game I paid full price for. Buying it for say 1/3 the price isn't going to change that.

Face palm! LOL It may not change it for you since you already bought it but it does for those that didn't.
Pii
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Pii »

ORIGINAL: kaburke61

(For Pii and the gang complaining (didn't quote - sorry))

My God, then just LEAVE....point has been taken (and taken.....and taken.....and taken).

If what you're trying to accomplish is something similar to the "Peng challenge thread"...congrats!
Feel free to quit reading then
Tomn
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Tomn »

Keep it civil, folks - I for one would like to continue the discussion without having it prematurely locked for flaming.
smudge56
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by smudge56 »

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

The game does have a high cost.....but has anyone looked at Battlefront prices.  Their not cheap.  The way I see it, Matrix has ever right to charge what they want for their product(their not the gas company/electric).  If you can afford it excellent, but if the game is out of your price range-then you can't buy it, period.  Just like a lower to a higher grade auto.  After reading the thread some seem to indicate that they are entitled to this game no matter what the cost.  I for one drive a low end car, why, I can't afford a higher price car.  We don't bash them.  I just don't buy the car.

So you might want to give them a break.  I think some are upset because they want the game but can't afford it and their getting personal.  I bought the game(and I am far from rich)but if I didn't have the money....I would just moved along.

Note: If my wife knew she would kill me! I'll admit it, I'am a game Whore. I need counseling.[:D][X(]


See there are many of us who are going to be killed by our wives. If there is an increase of murders you'll know why[:)]
AKA - Smudge
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Titanwarrior89
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Titanwarrior89 »

Well, I won't tell yours if you don't tell mine.[&o] Buddy![:D]
ORIGINAL: Blighty56
ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

The game does have a high cost.....but has anyone looked at Battlefront prices.  Their not cheap.  The way I see it, Matrix has ever right to charge what they want for their product(their not the gas company/electric).  If you can afford it excellent, but if the game is out of your price range-then you can't buy it, period.  Just like a lower to a higher grade auto.  After reading the thread some seem to indicate that they are entitled to this game no matter what the cost.  I for one drive a low end car, why, I can't afford a higher price car.  We don't bash them.  I just don't buy the car.

So you might want to give them a break.  I think some are upset because they want the game but can't afford it and their getting personal.  I bought the game(and I am far from rich)but if I didn't have the money....I would just moved along.

Note: If my wife knew she would kill me! I'll admit it, I'am a game Whore. I need counseling.[:D][X(]


See there are many of us who are going to be killed by our wives. If there is an increase of murders you'll know why[:)]
"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"
Rob322
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Rob322 »

ORIGINAL: Blighty56
ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

The game does have a high cost.....but has anyone looked at Battlefront prices.  Their not cheap.  The way I see it, Matrix has ever right to charge what they want for their product(their not the gas company/electric).  If you can afford it excellent, but if the game is out of your price range-then you can't buy it, period.  Just like a lower to a higher grade auto.  After reading the thread some seem to indicate that they are entitled to this game no matter what the cost.  I for one drive a low end car, why, I can't afford a higher price car.  We don't bash them.  I just don't buy the car.

So you might want to give them a break.  I think some are upset because they want the game but can't afford it and their getting personal.  I bought the game(and I am far from rich)but if I didn't have the money....I would just moved along.

Note: If my wife knew she would kill me! I'll admit it, I'am a game Whore. I need counseling.[:D][X(]


See there are many of us who are going to be killed by our wives. If there is an increase of murders you'll know why[:)]

My wife has put hundreds into The Sims as well as a bunch into Freemeium games on her iPad so I think she can live with me buying an $80 games every 4 years or so! ;)
pmelheck1
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by pmelheck1 »

ORIGINAL: kaburke61

(For Pii and the gang complaining (didn't quote - sorry))

My God, then just LEAVE....point has been taken (and taken.....and taken.....and taken).

If what you're trying to accomplish is something similar to the "Peng challenge thread"...congrats!

I agree, We get it you don't like Matrix. The price isn't going to change. I'm sure you will find lots of in depth war games on Steam. You can also talk about them on the steam boards as well with others with similar ideas. I'm sure Steam will be the shining beacon of wargaming with all their weekly releases for a mere pittance of what Matrix wants.
wombat778
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by wombat778 »

For the folks that disagree with Matrix's business model and that strongly believe there is a great untapped wargamer market out there, it seems like the right capitalistic answer is to start up a competing business. Pull together a business plan, a pitch, and some funds/investors. Then, go out and find some new wargamer developers and sell them on your business plan. If the developers agree with your ideas for a low price/mass audience business model, it shouldn't be impossible to convince them to sign with you (particularly if you are willing to provide them with development funding). Seriously, people create start-up businesses all the time, and it really isn't that hard to do if you are willing to take a risk with your time and money.
smudge56
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by smudge56 »

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Well, I won't tell yours if you don't tell mine.[&o] Buddy![:D]
ORIGINAL: Blighty56
ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

The game does have a high cost.....but has anyone looked at Battlefront prices.  Their not cheap.  The way I see it, Matrix has ever right to charge what they want for their product(their not the gas company/electric).  If you can afford it excellent, but if the game is out of your price range-then you can't buy it, period.  Just like a lower to a higher grade auto.  After reading the thread some seem to indicate that they are entitled to this game no matter what the cost.  I for one drive a low end car, why, I can't afford a higher price car.  We don't bash them.  I just don't buy the car.

So you might want to give them a break.  I think some are upset because they want the game but can't afford it and their getting personal.  I bought the game(and I am far from rich)but if I didn't have the money....I would just moved along.

Note: If my wife knew she would kill me! I'll admit it, I'am a game Whore. I need counseling.[:D][X(]


See there are many of us who are going to be killed by our wives. If there is an increase of murders you'll know why[:)]

It's a deal I just need to convince my left mouse button finger to click on buy game.[:)]
AKA - Smudge
pmelheck1
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by pmelheck1 »

ORIGINAL: Rob322

ORIGINAL: Blighty56
ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

The game does have a high cost.....but has anyone looked at Battlefront prices.  Their not cheap.  The way I see it, Matrix has ever right to charge what they want for their product(their not the gas company/electric).  If you can afford it excellent, but if the game is out of your price range-then you can't buy it, period.  Just like a lower to a higher grade auto.  After reading the thread some seem to indicate that they are entitled to this game no matter what the cost.  I for one drive a low end car, why, I can't afford a higher price car.  We don't bash them.  I just don't buy the car.

So you might want to give them a break.  I think some are upset because they want the game but can't afford it and their getting personal.  I bought the game(and I am far from rich)but if I didn't have the money....I would just moved along.

Note: If my wife knew she would kill me! I'll admit it, I'am a game Whore. I need counseling.[:D][X(]


See there are many of us who are going to be killed by our wives. If there is an increase of murders you'll know why[:)]

My wife has put hundreds into The Sims as well as a bunch into Freemeium games on her iPad so I think she can live with me buying an $80 games every 4 years or so! ;)
I don't drink or smoke so this is my only vice so she has no issues with my occasional indulgences.
smudge56
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by smudge56 »

ORIGINAL: mullk

ORIGINAL: Rob322

ORIGINAL: Blighty56




See there are many of us who are going to be killed by our wives. If there is an increase of murders you'll know why[:)]

My wife has put hundreds into The Sims as well as a bunch into Freemeium games on her iPad so I think she can live with me buying an $80 games every 4 years or so! ;)
I don't drink or smoke so this is my only vice so she has no issues with my occasional indulgences.

neither do I
AKA - Smudge
Tomn
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Tomn »

ORIGINAL: wombat778

For the folks that disagree with Matrix's business model and that strongly believe there is a great untapped wargamer market out there, it seems like the right capitalistic answer is to start up a competing business. Pull together a business plan, a pitch, and some funds/investors. Then, go out and find some new wargamer developers and sell them on your business plan. If the developers agree with your ideas for a low price/mass audience business model, it shouldn't be impossible to convince them to sign with you (particularly if you are willing to provide them with development funding). Seriously, people create start-up businesses all the time, and it really isn't that hard to do if you are willing to take a risk with your time and money.

This is true, but not all of us here are exactly in a position to drop everything and go full-time into a start-up. Particularly since one would argue that it'd be easier to self-publish a wargame as a dev through crowdfunding first, and then try to go into publishing with some credentials behind you. Not everyone who sees a problem is in a position to do something about it directly.

That said, I will certainly be keeping an eye out on Kickstarter for any promising candidates, and I encourage everyone here to do the same. Thanks to crowdfunding, one is no longer required to risk everything to put your money where your mouth is.

(By the way, how do you find KSP?)
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Brausepaul »

What amazes me is that this thread made 16 pages.
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Titanwarrior89
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Titanwarrior89 »

You know you want too. Buy it. I'll save you a chair in our counseling session.[;)]
ORIGINAL: Blighty56

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Well, I won't tell yours if you don't tell mine.[&o] Buddy![:D]
ORIGINAL: Blighty56




See there are many of us who are going to be killed by our wives. If there is an increase of murders you'll know why[:)]

It's a deal I just need to convince my left mouse button finger to click on buy game.[:)]
"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"
smudge56
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by smudge56 »

I am more and more tempted the more I read. Now a seat for counselling how can I not turn you down.[:)]


I will need to do it when she isn't standing over my shoulder....
ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

You know you want too. Buy it. I'll save you a chair in our counseling session.[;)]
ORIGINAL: Blighty56

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Well, I won't tell yours if you don't tell mine.[&o] Buddy![:D]


It's a deal I just need to convince my left mouse button finger to click on buy game.[:)]
AKA - Smudge
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