Pricing Suggestion

[bretg80]

Well I waited this long for CMANO, I can wait a few more years for a better game at a better price, or by then my interests will have changed and I'll be playing something else. I do wish the developers success and for those who buy the game at the higher price, I hope it meets your expectations and you get your money's worth.

[bretg80]

Swept under the carpet. No problem. The message is out there.

[Talon_XBMCX]

ORIGINAL: bretg80

Swept under the carpet. No problem. The message is out there.

Hardly swept under the carpet. If they would have deleted it then maybe I'd agree.

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

ORIGINAL: Panman

Come on guys ... this is hardly that much more expensive than a current AAA console titles. And how much play time do you get from your average AAA title? It's no more expensive than the other Matrix premium titles and has the potential to create a lot of additional FREE content by the community that the others don't provide.

It's 150% the price of a current AAA title (in Canada). Higher, if the title you're comparing it to is 6 months or older (outside of the AAA+ titles, which take about a year).

At $90 I'm not looking at the playtime from an average AAA title, I'm looking at AAA+ titles. My current daily game is Skyrim. Purchased for $20, all DLC added on for an additional $25 (God bless Gamer's Gate and Steam sales), 265 hours so far, 15 cents an hours. And I'm far from done, and I am far from the only person to have spent this much time.

For Command to give similar value at its current price it would have to deliver 530+ hours of gameplay. And I think outside of a 1-2% of diehards, no one else who purchases it will come close to that.

It is the most expensive title in the Matrix catalogue, so you're technically correct when you say it is no more expensive than any other.

God bless the community who will provide the free content. But I hardly think this is a reason to jack the price up. Plenty of other products out there have modding and extra scenarios (some even being "niche wargames"), and none of them are priced close to this.

ORIGINAL: Panman

No one is making you purchase anything. You can turn around and just walk out of the store ... or do you prefer to stand in the middle of the store and shout about it?

But what if I want to buy a decent TV? Or an inexpensive TV? Or (sharp intake of breath at my cheekiness) both?

And what if I like the look of the Matrix TV, but am still sane enough to realize that those who pay $1000 have money to burn, or a fervent loyalty that sways common sense? (I suspect Matrix relies on this for their business model.) 5 years ago I could go to stores where Matrix TVs were $800, $600, $500...but Matrix has withdrawn their products from those stores.

And what if we go beyond me, and look at the chap buying his first ever TV? He loves the look of the Matrix one, but think it's insane to pay the price being asked, especially when the salesman won't even turn it on so he can view it before purchasing.

So he walks out of the store, never to consider Matrix as a potential purchase ever again.

I want a BMW, Lexus, and a Jaguar ... a walk past those dealerships as a potential customer ... never to consider a purchase again and I doubt they even care I walk past.

WitP, WitE, and I am assuming WitW are also at the same price. This title is in good company and provides MORE potential content. Again, a greater value in my eyes and I own those other titles as well. The amount of research that goes into the database is worth the value alone.

If you want to buy a decent TV and an inexpensive one, then save up your money and do so. Why should the manufacturer lower their prices just so you could have both?

Do you think the Ferrari dealer is going to give that chap a test drive if he doesn't think he can afford the car? Sorry, I don't buy the demo excuse. There are plenty of videos demonstrating game play, the reviews are coming out, and the boards are a good indication of the issues.

As a consumer you get to decide if it's worth the cost or not. You can shout and post about it until you are blue in the face but in the end, it's the sales that speak louder than anything.

[Aurelian]

Yeah, but they'd rather listen to RPS, who by their own admission, have barely touched the game, yet whine about the price.

And he's comparing TVs, a mass market item, to a computer wargame, now? Talk about reaching.

[Pii]

ORIGINAL: JDM

Hi Pii

I realisee that you are a brand new member of the forum, so I thought a quick note might be helpful here. Wik 33 and Aurelians posts are quite in order and if any moderating is needed we can cope. Just for the record, what is not permitted are personal insults or put downs.

BTW, as you are so new to the forum, which of our games do you actually play/own. I am sure posters would be interested.

Why, what I own has no bearing on the debate here? As a matter of fact it shows more about how matrix pricing is turning away new blood like me. I never heard of matrix until I saw Command on Simhq so I came here to buy it and ran into the famous Matrix game sticker shock.

I have no idea what the moderating comment is about but it was wis33 that closed he discussion so maybe you should have a talk with him or the others that have told us to stop and go away.

Oh well I'm done here and I'm hanging in the first impression threads trying to decide to buy or not. Is that OK or do I need to own something first? BTW I liked the Close combat demo and may own that someday..maybe

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: Panman
I want a BMW, Lexus, and a Jaguar ... a walk past those dealerships as a potential customer ... never to consider a purchase again and I doubt they even care I walk past.

WitP, WitE, and I am assuming WitW are also at the same price. This title is in good company and provides MORE potential content. Again, a greater value in my eyes and I own those other titles as well. The amount of research that goes into the database is worth the value alone.

If you want to buy a decent TV and an inexpensive one, then save up your money and do so. Why should the manufacturer lower their prices just so you could have both?

Do you think the Ferrari dealer is going to give that chap a test drive if he doesn't think he can afford the car? Sorry, I don't buy the demo excuse. There are plenty of videos demonstrating game play, the reviews are coming out, and the boards are a good indication of the issues.

As a consumer you get to decide if it's worth the cost or not. You can shout and post about it until you are blue in the face but in the end, it's the sales that speak louder than anything.

If it's the sales that speak louder than anything, then consider the following foghorns:

Civilization V - strategy game
XCOM Enemy Unknown - strategy game
Unity of Command - strategy game
Wargame European Escalation/AirLand Battle - strategy game
Basically the entire Paradox Games catalog
IL-2 Sturmovik and Silent Hunter 3/4/5 in the flight/sub sim niches
Chris Taylor's Space Citizen - not-even-released-yet hard-core game in the space simulator niche
Obsidian's Project Eternity - not-even-released yet hard-core game in the old-school-RPG niche

There isn't anything to suggest that a recent title such as WITE or WITP or Command would turn out less profits than they already do by having their price point set to (at least!) half of what they are now, nor is there anything to suggest that there's any money to be had from keeping older games on the catalog at several times the price of what GOG is selling more recent titles for.

What is the justification for Uncommon Valor being so much more expensive than, say, Jagged Alliance or the original Combat Mission Beyond Overlord? If the original Uncommon Valor is already superseded by War in the Pacific, which is itself superseded by Admiral's Edition, why couldn't we have people pick up UV for a fiver or a tenner and have them experience the basic game system as an introduction to the later iterations of the series? The same could be said for the original Conquest of the Aegean vis-a-vis Command Ops.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: bretg80

Swept under the carpet. No problem. The message is out there.

And the message is WAAAAH! WAAAAH! WAAAAH!

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: bretg80

Swept under the carpet. No problem. The message is out there.

And the message is WAAAAH! WAAAAH! WAAAAH!

Ad hominem. And nothing else.

I await Erik's admonishment of you.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

What is the justification for Uncommon Valor being so much more expensive than, say, Jagged Alliance or the original Combat Mission Beyond Overlord? If the original Uncommon Valor is already superseded by War in the Pacific, which is itself superseded by Admiral's Edition, why couldn't we have people pick up UV for a fiver or a tenner and have them experience the basic game system as an introduction to the later iterations of the series? The same could be said for the original Conquest of the Aegean vis-a-vis Command Ops.

Ah, but then you wouldn't value Uncommon Valor, or WitP. Matrix would literally be cheating you out of giving them the respect they deserve.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: Panman

If you want to buy a decent TV and an inexpensive one, then save up your money and do so. Why should the manufacturer lower their prices just so you could have both?

Oh. I get it. Companies produce products as a favour for their customers. Our wishes are not only irrelevant, but are disrespectful of the great effort companies are contributing to make our lives better. And at no reward to themselves. Shameful, bad, disrespectful customers!

ORIGINAL: Panman

As a consumer you get to decide if it's worth the cost or not. You can shout and post about it until you are blue in the face but in the end, it's the sales that speak louder than anything.

And since Matrix never releases their sales figures you, with all due respect, have no idea whether the sales of Command are, or will be, abysmal or outstanding. And coy "hints" from upper management like "sales are exactly within our predictions" and "sales are doing well for such a niche product" do more to destroy your argument than bolster it.

[Alchenar]

The figures discussion isn't ever going to go anywhere because Matrix aren't going to release sensitive commercial data to win a dumb internet forum argument.

That's fair enough. I still don't think there's been a qualitative explanation for how the Wargames genre is somehow unique and special and not subject to the same market conditions as various other niche video game products (beyond the implicit 'badly made games won't benefit from sales' point).


e: although it's common ground that wargame sales are absolutely terrible in comparison to other genres. The question is why and what the potential market is.

[aaatoysandmore]

Basically as long as sites are willing to give tremendous discounts like Steam and Gamersgate and all the rest most of us with any brains are going to wait for those sale prices of $5 to $10 what you are paying full retail price today for is the right to play the game before anyone that doesn't pay, you're getting a less working game and basically paying to be an open beta tester for all the rest of us that wait. Big deal I'm not that childish to have to have a game upon release or be 1st inline so to speak like back in grade school days. I enjoy theset $5-$10 purchases and the practically finished product that we should get for full retail price anyway but don't.

Now with Matrix and Slitherine I can see their "need" to get full retail price all the time. They are walking a tightrope trying to stay in business and need every penny they can get but if you notice even they are starting to give discounts and sales. You just need to give them time although they may never get down to the $5-$10 prices no matter how old a game gets for you see there are children turning 12 years old everyday and they are willing to pay that same price for an old wargame because they see value, but us old fart wargamers want deal after deal on something that is over half our age older it's more of a mental thing as we get to the end of our lives we want things cheaper especially older things. The young wargamer doesn't see things the way we do if they did, Matrixgames and Slitherine would be out of business. If I were 12 again I wouldn't care if games like Steel Panthers: Generals Edition was $60, mom and dad are going to buy it or give me the allowance to buy it eventually anyways. Most of you are thinking only of yourselves and making up any excuses to get the game you want at a discount. It's just common nature to be selfish to some degree. :{}

[Aurelian]

Took a guick look over at the steel beast forum.

Don't see anyone complaining about the price.

Or saying "But we can buy Microprose's M1 Tank Platoon for x.xx"

Or comparing it to a console or app store game.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Basically as long as sites are willing to give tremendous discounts like Steam and Gamersgate

So how much money have they spent developing those games?

Yeah, Matrix is starting to give discounts on games. Old games. And its not the same games every week.

And there is no guarantee that they will continue.

They never stated it would be an ongoing thing.

[Pii]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: bretg80

Swept under the carpet. No problem. The message is out there.

And the message is WAAAAH! WAAAAH! WAAAAH!

[>:]

[Maesphil74]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Took a guick look over at the steel beast forum.

Don't see anyone complaining about the price.

Or saying "But we can buy Microprose's M1 Tank Platoon for x.xx"

Or comparing it to a console or app store game.

never go for a quickie [:-]
http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/sho ... ice&page=2

[Pii]

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: bretg80

Swept under the carpet. No problem. The message is out there.

And the message is WAAAAH! WAAAAH! WAAAAH!

Ad hominem. And nothing else.

I await Erik's admonishment of you.

It looks like the elite guards get a pass on that stuff.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Now with Matrix and Slitherine I can see their "need" to get full retail price all the time. They are walking a tightrope trying to stay in business and need every penny they can get

Given that they never release sales data, share little of their business model, and assure us daily they are doing "fine", I fail to see where you get that assertion from.

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
but if you notice even they are starting to give discounts and sales. You just need to give them time although they may never get down to the $5-$10 prices no matter how old a game gets for you see there are children turning 12 years old everyday and they are willing to pay that same price for an old wargame because they see value, but us old fart wargamers want deal after deal on something that is over half our age older it's more of a mental thing as we get to the end of our lives we want things cheaper especially older things.

When they make the statement that they are happy with their business model, see nothing wrong with it, and will not under any circumstances change it, I fail to see how all they need is "time". Time just takes them farther along the path of "less customers, so prices must raise; less customers, so prices must raise; less customers, so prices must raise". You must understand that there is no maximum cap to Matrix prices...just a minimum one.

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
The young wargamer doesn't see things the way we do if they did, Matrixgames and Slitherine would be out of business. If I were 12 again I wouldn't care if games like Steel Panthers: Generals Edition was $60, mom and dad are going to buy it or give me the allowance to buy it eventually anyways. Most of you are thinking only of yourselves and making up any excuses to get the game you want at a discount. It's just common nature to be selfish to some degree. :{}

The youngest wargamer I know is 42. I know younger ones are out there, but it's a shrinking base, and has been for a decade or more.

Why one would do anything to discourage more customers, more future sales, and a brighter future for the hobby is beyond me. It's not a case of selfishness, it's a case of packaging a product out of the reach of all but the True Believers.

An opera company existed in my city 20 years ago. It's gone now. The major reason cited? The creative powers behind it kept producing shows aimed at an elderly audience, their tried and true faithful supporters. The only problem is that elderly people die, and the company did nothing to encourage younger supporters.

There's a scary parallel here.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Fleming

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Took a guick look over at the steel beast forum.

Don't see anyone complaining about the price.

Or saying "But we can buy Microprose's M1 Tank Platoon for x.xx"

Or comparing it to a console or app store game.

never go for a quickie [:-]
http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/sho ... ice&page=2

Ok. And did they lower the price any?

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Pii

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

ORIGINAL: Terminus




And the message is WAAAAH! WAAAAH! WAAAAH!

Ad hominem. And nothing else.

I await Erik's admonishment of you.

It looks like the elite guards get a pass on that stuff.

Actually, they don't.

But the bottom line is that is exactly what the message is.

If you can't afford it, it is no one's problem but your own.

Once you acknowledge that, then you can take steps to change that.

Like better control over your money.