ARM attack - Bearing only launch

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Wiz33
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by Wiz33 »

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Sounds reasonable to me that later western ARMs could have such a firing mode, but still by any operational aspects it seems more like a big waste of resources that would be seldom used. Would you take the risk of shooting an ARM without a lock on an emission source, and with no assurance that said source will activate before it gets out of the missile's targeting envelope, either by flying by or running out of fuel? [:)]

The only reason ALARM may have such a mode is because it has this clever parachute deployment option, that actually makes such an approach worthy: with the certainty that the missile will stay on station much longer, such an technique is arguably way more sound.

But then again, AS-4? Come on! The Martel was a western 80s something missile system, and still you had to know the radio band of the target you were striking before taking off, as you had to set-up the targeting specter on the ground. In that view, I'd venture that a bearing only, multiple band attack mode is a thing of late XXth century ARM, out of reach for poor mid-60s' Kh-22 ARM. And even then, remember that a HARM eats through its fuel reserves in 3 min, shooting through the sky at Mach 2. The enemy radar operator'd better be VERY cooperative. You just don't blind-shoot a specialized weapon asset with less than a 3 min targeting window, especially if the whole package relies on your SEAD efficiency.


All depends on your objective. If you're trying to clear the way for a critical strike. A 3 minutes window can mean life or death for some of the aircrew. Also, now we actually have to live with limited stores (unlike Harpoon). So if the weapon is at least capable according to spec. then the ability should be in game. It's up to the player to decide if it's worth the use.
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Der Zeitgeist
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by Der Zeitgeist »

I found some info on the "pre-briefed" LOAL mode for the HARM:

http://www.harpoondatabases.com/encyclo ... y3131.aspx

I think you might know the source. [:D]
1) Lock-on after firing: In USN/USMC terminology this is "Pre-Briefed (PB)", in the USAF it is "Pre-Emptive (PE)". This is the most common way to use HARM. In PB/PE, the plane programs a variety of target frequencies into the HARM and fires it down a bearing. The missile cruises down that bearing until it detects a target frequency, upon which it localizes and attacks it. If more than one threat type is detected, artificial intelligence onboard decides which is the most "juicy" target. If nothing is detected, the HARM self-destructs when the rocket’s fuel is used up.
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Primarchx
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by Primarchx »

I recall the capability. I'm just saying that in my source checks I just haven't seen that ability mentioned being used in combat. Against active spikes sure. Pre-emptively against dead air, no.

Not trying to be oppositional, just trying to discuss how and why it would be included. As I think about it the pre-emptive mode may be more applicable to Double-Digit SAMs that have not been encountered in combat thus far.
ORIGINAL: Der Zeitgeist

I found some info on the "pre-briefed" LOAL mode for the HARM:

http://www.harpoondatabases.com/encyclo ... y3131.aspx

I think you might know the source. [:D]
1) Lock-on after firing: In USN/USMC terminology this is "Pre-Briefed (PB)", in the USAF it is "Pre-Emptive (PE)". This is the most common way to use HARM. In PB/PE, the plane programs a variety of target frequencies into the HARM and fires it down a bearing. The missile cruises down that bearing until it detects a target frequency, upon which it localizes and attacks it. If more than one threat type is detected, artificial intelligence onboard decides which is the most "juicy" target. If nothing is detected, the HARM self-destructs when the rocket’s fuel is used up.
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ExMachina
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by ExMachina »

I recall the capability. I'm just saying that in my source checks I just haven't seen that ability mentioned being used in combat. Against active spikes sure. Pre-emptively against dead air, no.

Since most conventional ARMs are not defeated (I don't believe) by simply turning off the target's emitter for a moment or two, then at least a limited amount of flight into "dead air" is demonstrably possible. Obviously the final homing phase would require an active emitter.

So then, it's all a matter of whether or not we believe a weapon's specs as having the theoretical capability of being launched against at a specified, non-radiating coordinate. HARMs are said to have this capability...so I think it probably should be modeled.
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Der Zeitgeist
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by Der Zeitgeist »

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

I recall the capability. I'm just saying that in my source checks I just haven't seen that ability mentioned being used in combat. Against active spikes sure. Pre-emptively against dead air, no.

Hmm, I don't see the point in that. There's a lot of stuff in CMANO that has not been operationally used. If we determine a weapon has a certain capability, why not let the player decide if he wants to shoot missiles at thin air or not?
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Primarchx
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by Primarchx »

As long as the capability is one that is realistically achievable, and a good indicator of that would be historical combat use or suitable testing, I have no problem with that.
ORIGINAL: Der Zeitgeist
ORIGINAL: Primarchx

I recall the capability. I'm just saying that in my source checks I just haven't seen that ability mentioned being used in combat. Against active spikes sure. Pre-emptively against dead air, no.

Hmm, I don't see the point in that. There's a lot of stuff in CMANO that has not been operationally used. If we determine a weapon has a certain capability, why not let the player decide if he wants to shoot missiles at thin air or not?
Tomcat84
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by Tomcat84 »

I think it should be in.
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bsq
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by bsq »

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I am seeing way too many posts citing manufacturers' claims about missiles and systems. Those are good starting points, but doctrine and realistic capabilities need to come into play. I saw somewhere that a missile capability should changed because a manufacturer video showed it. My Volvo also has a speedometer that goes to 160 mph...my doctrine says under 100 is more realistic.

What I actually said was that there were loads of videos showing that the SA-15 DOES NOT go round in 2's. It was designed to work in 4's with a Rangir BCP. Please don't misquote me to try and prove your point here.

BOL - a 'SLAPSHOT' is a very valid and much used tactic for HARM and ALARM. Broadcasting MAGNUM and the sudden appearance on your radar scope of small fast moving target will shut down the 'victim' potentially long before it acquires. SEAD - the S is for suppression - if you want it guaranteed destroyed, then use DEAD.
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CapnDarwin
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by CapnDarwin »

Adding a BOL mode is cool if the weapon supports it. In most cases, the early ARMs won't have the additional guidance avionics to do the job and without a radar to track to the missile has no way of being controled. You would have to know that certain missiles have an additional inertial system that allows for a flight to a terminal point so the ARM seeker can hunt or can set a terminal point if an emitter is detected by the ARM seeker and then shut off. Late version HARMs could do that with decent accuracy. It can be very hard to know if certain weapons have there abilities.
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Wiz33
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by Wiz33 »

ORIGINAL: Der Zeitgeist
ORIGINAL: Primarchx

I recall the capability. I'm just saying that in my source checks I just haven't seen that ability mentioned being used in combat. Against active spikes sure. Pre-emptively against dead air, no.

Hmm, I don't see the point in that. There's a lot of stuff in CMANO that has not been operationally used. If we determine a weapon has a certain capability, why not let the player decide if he wants to shoot missiles at thin air or not?

Yep. Half or more of the data we have on modern and future stuff are based on wild ass guesses anyways. So put the capability in the game and let the scenario designer and player deal with it. If they don't like it. They can tweak and release their custom database.
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Der Zeitgeist
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by Der Zeitgeist »

I just stumbled upon an old preview of CMANO during development:

http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=1178

It says:
he SA-6 is dangerous despite its age, so a preemptive strike with the Weasels’ HARM missiles is quickly agreed upon. The HARM can be launched in 3 modes:
1) Short-range “snapshot” direct attack – e.g. the parent aircraft detects a pop-up mobile SAM at close range, the ARM seeker locks on the emission pre-launch and the weapon is fired directly on that target.
2) Long-range targeted attack, ie. you fire the ARM in bearing-only launch (BOL) mode but specify the emission you want it to lock to. It will home only on this specific emission and nothing else. (Note though that if another SAM unit with the same emission, or even a decoy emitter, is nearby, the ARM may lock on that instead.)
3) Long-range “freehunt” attack, ie. you BOL-fire the ARM without specifying an emission to sniff for, it will simply home on any emission it detects. This is useful for preemptively saturating a suspected high-threat area (conceptually similar to plastering with artillery a hilltop that may or may not host enemy troops).
In this occasion the F-4Gs are well out of range for a “snapshot” attack (and all the happier for it – if you are close enough to lock the HARM pre-launch, you are almost certainly in the heart of the enemy SAM’s envelope). On the other hand a freehunt launch is undesirable because of the proximity of other forces in the area and the possible presence of other emitters. So a long-range targeted launch is preffered.
Both Wild Weasels tune their HARMs to the Straight Flush radar and cut loose.

I wonder why they took it out? [&:]
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MR_BURNS2
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by MR_BURNS2 »

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

But when has that actually been done operationally? My reading (and I LOVE Wild Weasel stuff) has not indicated this method has been used. Now that may be that I'm not reading the right stuff or a USAF doctrinal issue or that the capability isn't all it's cracked up to be.
ORIGINAL: ExMachina

Regarding preemptive use: http://defense-update.com/products/h/harm.htm

Specifically:
HARM can operate in three modes: preemptive,
missile-as-sensor and self-protect. In long-range preemptive
scenarios, HARM is fired before locking on to the threat radar. Targeting is provided through preflight planning or cued via on- or off-board sensors.

What exactly have you been reading?

I read:

this, this, this, and this.

this and this one are waiting on my bookshelf.

They are all good and interesting books that i can recommend, and all of them mention pre-emptive Harm Shots. Hell they even did it at the F-117´s Time on Target! Yes a pre-emptive Harm shot for a Stealth Fighter, these guys received plenty of enemy attention too.

Apart from that, for whatever its worth, i did it myself in a fairly realistic Flightsim, Falcon BMS.
Now this surely can´t be a 100% realistic Sim, but it´s as close as it gets.
They use some RL picture in the part of the manual where they explain how it works.

Check this video out if you want to know more about that.

I also remember a Documentary where German Tornado ECR Crew talked about how they used Harm in this very way.

If you want more then that i could put up some quotes here from any of these books, but i hardly have time for that, better just read them ;).


PS: Just learned about this one too, looks promising.

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LuckyJim1010
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by LuckyJim1010 »

I am starting to think that this is just a bug.

I worked on the Skyguard system and the manufacture's of that were so scared of ARM's the bloody alarm would go off all the time.
For some reason mostly when tracking Harriers

In the end we had the techies take the alarm off line.

As a few have pointed out, simply saying 'It has not been shown in combat' just does not cut it.
In this game, of all games, all we doing 99% of the time is simulating 'What might have/could have happened'

All SSM's and Guided Torpedo's are pretty expensive but most can do BOL.

In my scenario the targets I am going for are massive, long range, primary search radars of the RAF on the East coast of Britain.

Their location is extremely well known as are their operating frequencies, prf, etc etc (Soviet 'trawlers' that only ever seemed to fish in one spot)

I am not talking about 'wasting an AS4 ARM' on a Sam site.
If I fire 6 at the 3 main Sector Operations Centers, if just 1 gets through to each site I have put a massive dent in the UK's ability to garner an Air Picture of the UK Air Defense Region.

Use 6 AS4's for putting 3 Type84/85's out of commission ? No brainer.

As it is it's a bit of a moot point anyway, because the Tercom AS4's can launch at max range and they do just fine :-)
LuckyJim1010
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by LuckyJim1010 »

This will put the cat amongst the pigeons.

Are there any ARM's in the game capable of taking on an Airborne radar target (think AWACS, not fighters)
bsq
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by bsq »

ORIGINAL: LuckyJim1010

This will put the cat amongst the pigeons.

Are there any ARM's in the game capable of taking on an Airborne radar target (think AWACS, not fighters)

Novator K-100 (or R-172 if you like) would fit the bill but doesn't seem to be in the game.
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Primarchx
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by Primarchx »

ORIGINAL: MR_BURNS2



What exactly have you been reading?


Lately? Viper Pilot, a Memoir of Air Combat. Wild Weasel Fighter Attack: The Story of the Suppression of Enemy Air Defences. Iron Hand: Smashing the Enemies Air Defenses. Principles of Naval Weapons (again).

Here's what Iron Hand says about the HARM's operational Modus Operandi:
Operating modes varied according to the shooter's capabilities. The US Navy built HARM based around three key modes of use: Pre-Brief (PB), Target of Opportunity (TOO) and Self Protect (SP), with TOO to SP as an option. PB was selected for use on a pre-emptive basis, against pre-planned targets which were made known to HARM prior to launch; TOO against targets picked up by HARM itself and verified as valid prior to launch; and SP, as its' name implied, against unexpected pop-up threats usually identified by the launch aircraft's ECM equipment.

So pre-emptive use is pre-planned use against known targets. It's not 'shoot a HARM out to suppress whatever comes up'. I'm of course open to any other info from another source.


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MR_BURNS2
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by MR_BURNS2 »

ORIGINAL: Primarchx
ORIGINAL: MR_BURNS2



What exactly have you been reading?


Lately? Viper Pilot, a Memoir of Air Combat. Wild Weasel Fighter Attack: The Story of the Suppression of Enemy Air Defences. Iron Hand: Smashing the Enemies Air Defenses. Principles of Naval Weapons (again).

Here's what Iron Hand says about the HARM's operational Modus Operandi:
Operating modes varied according to the shooter's capabilities. The US Navy built HARM based around three key modes of use: Pre-Brief (PB), Target of Opportunity (TOO) and Self Protect (SP), with TOO to SP as an option. PB was selected for use on a pre-emptive basis, against pre-planned targets which were made known to HARM prior to launch; TOO against targets picked up by HARM itself and verified as valid prior to launch; and SP, as its' name implied, against unexpected pop-up threats usually identified by the launch aircraft's ECM equipment.

So pre-emptive use is pre-planned use against known targets. It's not 'shoot a HARM out to suppress whatever comes up'. I'm of course open to any other info from another source.



Yes, to supress targets known by coordinates, they would fire them towards that coordinate, and if the pre-planned emitter type goes online the Harm homes in on it.

Image

APA link

All they need is a coordinate, they get that either from intelligence or from a special onboard ESM sensor like HTS.

If the coordinate is believed to be accurate and they want to make sure Harm looks only at a small target area/footprint they can use EOM.
If not so accurate, PB has a bigger footprint and its more likely to pick it up.




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ExMachina
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by ExMachina »

ORIGINAL: Primarchx
So pre-emptive use is pre-planned use against known targets. It's not 'shoot a HARM out to suppress whatever comes up'.

That's how I've been reading the weapon's capabilities (and what the early developer report quoted by Der Zeitgeist intended). You fire the weapon at a specific coordinate.
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by Dimitris »

So what is the problem again? I've kinda lost track with this very interesting discussion :)
Tomcat84
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RE: ARM attack - Bearing only launch

Post by Tomcat84 »

Unable (apparently, haven't tested myself) to launch HARMs and other ARMs BOL into a certain area before a suitable emitter is either detected or radiating.
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