Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

[JocMeister]

I agree with Spidery. A shock attack will likely just gut your forces. I think the Chinese are better suited on the defence backed up by arty and AT guns.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I agree with Spidery. A shock attack will likely just gut your forces. I think the Chinese are better suited on the defence backed up by arty and AT guns.

+1

Looking on the bright side, he will never be able to break through into Northern Burma from this position, so once you have the Indian and Brit offensive power (with engineers and armor) you will easily break through. Since it is a clear hex your bombers should be able to do some work here as well. In two weeks the results could be very different after you recover many of those squads and if his forces are weakened. Level 3 forts in the clear are brittle to say the least.

[Bullwinkle58]

Thanks for the comments, guys. I have since sent the next turn back, but not seen the movie. LCU examination at Pegu showed a highly skewed loss pattern (typical in big stacks) with some LCUs reduced to zero AV with just Support left, and others barely touched. The troubling element was disruption, which was 50% or higher in about 60% of the LCUs. Supply state continues to be excellent though.

I ordered a bombardment in the current turn as many of the Chinese corps have 8-10 decent tube arty devices plus a lot of mortars. I know his divisions have organic tubes too. I want to see how bad the counter-battery is. So, an experiment. Supply is the fulcrum here and at Rangoon. I can get it; he can only get enough in by sea. I can't stop that right now.

The Brit and Indian forces are in the Rangoon stack which has been hurt badly by troop bombing. I'm going to look closely at the utility of trying to get some of the Pegu stack over there. Crossing the hexside might be a problem. I'm also going to look at holding at Pegu, eating the troop losses from the air, and see if I can take Chiang Mai and perhaps Moulmein and further isolate the region.

I don't anticipate Allied air help in a time span that solves my troop bombing problem. At worst I can withdraw the Rangoon stack across the river to Bassein (again), and the Pegu stack north to Toungoo to wait for Allied air. I agree he has little chance at this point of ever getting at the oil in Burma. But I'd like to pressure his Arms and Vehicle pools on an HI basis to accelerate the pressure on his airplane build rate. It's all connected.

[Spidery]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

But I'd like to pressure his Arms and Vehicle pools on an HI basis to accelerate the pressure on his airplane build rate. It's all connected.

Squads only cost 1 Arm point to replace, they mainly use Manpower. You need to find tanks and guns to kill to put pressure on HI. A tank division is somewhere between 1000 and 2000 planes.

Also, the biggest Japanese guns are replaced from limited pre-war stocks and not built from HI (the 24cm and 30cm howitzers; the 28cm howitzers I think are irreplaceable). These are the guns that are in the heavy artillery battalions.

[Bullwinkle58]

August 6, 1942

Experiment

1) SS KXI wanders far up river, against react orders, and hits a mine at Rangoon. Sinks.

2) Heavy sweeps on Eniwetok gives roughly equal losses in low single digits. The Zeros are at pretty long range. The bombing comes and take 2 SBDs. They again refuse to fly on transports in the area. I will move them back to Wake as they are repaired.

3) Typical troop attack at Rangoon/Pegu. They are very heavy. Many coming from Moulmein, which may change my near-term target list. Troop losses probably over 1000 today. I've stopped counting.

Morning Air attack on 25th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment, at 54,53 (Rangoon)

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10
A6M3 Zero x 10
G3M3 Nell x 18
G4M1 Betty x 15
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 9

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 1
Hurricane IIc Trop x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 12 damaged
G3M3 Nell: 1 destroyed by flak
G4M1 Betty: 9 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
79 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 13 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 8 (6 destroyed, 2 disabled)

4) Unmentioned most days, but PBang gets just enough bombing to hold Forts steady. Losses here are 1-2 bombers a day and usually a dozen damaged. Supply at 214,000. I have been quietly evacuating Batavia and moving everything to PBang. By ship where I had PPs to convert to ABDA HQ, and by patrol plane for white restricted Dutch forces. Several decent medium-sized Dutch infantry units, and a couple of nice base forces so far. Batavia is an important base and it has 32,000 supply, but none of it can flow to Soerbaja and holding the PBang oil back as long as possible is much more important.

5) Also unmentioned has been daily light bombing of Chungking. A typical raid today:

Morning Air attack on Chungking , at 76,45

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 39 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-Ic Sally x 11
Ki-30 Ann x 17
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-Ic Sally: 4 damaged
Ki-30 Ann: 8 damaged

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 5

6) Several IJN carrier forces go into action today.

-- Near Shortlands, where NZ TFs have been unloading supply to bolster the fairly significant garrison there.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Shortlands at 109,131

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 75 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 32 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 16
B5N1 Kate x 13
B5N2 Kate x 29

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
xAK Aspasia Nomikos, Torpedo hits 1
DD Le Triomphant
AMC Monowai, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AM Moa
xAP Matua, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Comliebank
xAP Wahine
xAK Steel Worker

--Near Rabaul, which has CAP but not a heavy one, the carrier planes go after a small ASW TF operating near the base.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Rabaul at 106,124

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 24
D3A1 Val x 13

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IA x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk IA: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
AM Cessnock, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
AM Benalla, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
AM Junee

--At soerbaja, the carriers are east and SE in two groups, operating at long range, presumably due to subs and Hudsons (As if the latter could hit the ground with piss poured from a boot.)

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Soerabaja at 56,104

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 73 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 32
D3A1 Val x 27

Allied aircraft
P-38E Lightning x 1
P-40E Warhawk x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Concord, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires
CL Newcastle, Bomb hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage

--LBA also hits Soerbaja, further damaging the cruisers' prospects.

Afternoon Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 47 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 26
G3M2 Nell x 24

Allied aircraft
P-38E Lightning x 1
P-40E Warhawk x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
G3M2 Nell: 20 damaged
G3M2 Nell: 2 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CA Exeter, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Soerbaja supply is at 2200, below the level where it will re-arm PTs, subs, or surface ships. I have sent a couple of small supply TFs toward the base, but it's unlikely they will make it in. The undamaged surface ships will take on fuel and most likely dash for freedom in the next two days, probably hugging the coast toward Batavia.

7) Japan shock attacks th single Chinese corps at Moulmein, destroying it and sending it into the reincarnation queue at Chunking. The other two continue to approach.

Ground combat at Moulmein (55,55)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 24098 troops, 206 guns, 42 vehicles, Assault Value = 617

Defending force 4420 troops, 39 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 75

Japanese adjusted assault: 936

Allied adjusted defense: 11

Japanese assault odds: 85 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), preparation(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
124 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
5922 casualties reported
Squads: 251 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 286 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 35 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 54 (54 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Assaulting units:
13th Ind.Mixed Brigade
57th Division
22nd Field AA Machinecannon Company
3rd Provisional Base Force
50th Field AA Battalion
1st Provisional Base Force

Defending units:
55th Chinese Corps

8) The experimental bombardment at Pegu isn't good, isn't bad, isn't a way to go. Back to the drawing board.

Ground combat at Pegu (55,53)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 159079 troops, 1227 guns, 152 vehicles, Assault Value = 5552

Defending force 65115 troops, 636 guns, 185 vehicles, Assault Value = 2023

Japanese ground losses:
80 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Allied ground losses:
216 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 19 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Spidery

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

But I'd like to pressure his Arms and Vehicle pools on an HI basis to accelerate the pressure on his airplane build rate. It's all connected.

Squads only cost 1 Arm point to replace, they mainly use Manpower. You need to find tanks and guns to kill to put pressure on HI. A tank division is somewhere between 1000 and 2000 planes.

Also, the biggest Japanese guns are replaced from limited pre-war stocks and not built from HI (the 24cm and 30cm howitzers; the 28cm howitzers I think are irreplaceable). These are the guns that are in the heavy artillery battalions.

1 squad uses one Arm point, which costs 6 HI. 6 HI is non-trivial IMO.

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

--At soerbaja, the carriers are east and SE in two groups, operating at long range, presumably due to subs and Hudsons (As if the latter could hit the ground with piss poured from a boot.)

I take it you are less than enthused about these Masters Of The Sky?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

--At soerbaja, the carriers are east and SE in two groups, operating at long range, presumably due to subs and Hudsons (As if the latter could hit the ground with piss poured from a boot.)

I take it you are less than enthused about these Masters Of The Sky?

It's a family forum. [:)]

[Encircled]

Ah, the Hudsons

Can't hit anything, and die like flies

I love '42!

[JocMeister]

I only use them for ASW duty. The LR version have a decent enough range for 42!

[CaptBeefheart]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I only use them for ASW duty. The LR version have a decent enough range for 42!

Ditto.

Cheers,
CC

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I only use them for ASW duty. The LR version have a decent enough range for 42!

Double ditto

[Bullwinkle58]

August 7, 1942

Rinse, Repeat

I think I'm going to stop commenting on the troop attacks at Rangoon/Pegu. Should make these daily entries pretty short.

1) Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Sub attack near Loemadjang at 55,107

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi
CA Atago
CS Chitose
DD Tanikaze
DD Suresushio
DD Asagumo
DD Minegumo

Allied Ships
SS Sculpin

SS Sculpin launches 4 torpedoes at CV Akagi
DD Suresushio fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Asagumo fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Minegumo fails to find sub and abandons search
Escort abandons search for sub

2) USS Tarpon returns to the Sea of Japan. Almost all USN subs have been supporting the Marshalls for a long time. Not a lot of boats in HI waters, but a few. More to come. Tarpon BINGs! off xAK Nissan Maru. This guy is on his 19th life by now.

3) Eniwetok is swept and gets one small bombing raid which claims two damaged P-40s but nothing else. I think this island is fersmeckeling Japan. Forts pretty far along towards Level 5.

4) Only xAKLs unloading at Ramree. Japan makes a gesture toward the port, but no damage. Those $&*!$ LST builders need to put down the coffee and get welding.

5) OK, one Rangoon raid. This was one of the better ones for the Allies. Most were not better.

Morning Air attack on 23rd Indian Division, at 54,53 (Rangoon)

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5
A6M3 Zero x 4
G4M1 Betty x 12
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 5 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 3 destroyed by flak

Allied ground losses:
6 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Are Brit and Indian trop losses worth the HI the 2E losses are costing Japan? I don't know. A lot of forumites would say no, pool rates for both nations are terrible, etc, etc. I hear that. But my strategy game-wide is POL denial, which leads in 1943-44 to HI shortages and hard decisions for Japan. I'm hoping to avoid late-war uber-air forces. In Scenario 2 he's still cruising on the fuel stocks in the scenario. He's used his carriers and BBs lavishly on the eastern half of the map, but he's still got juice here in August. I'm hoping he won't have so much by January. PBang is showing more and more chance it will hold until relieved. The evacuation of Batavia to that base continues. I think he'll have Soerbaja in the next month to six weeks, which will help him, but my torpedoes start to heal up in several (OK, a little more than several) months. I don't see any way, outside an utter collapse in Burma, he gets that oil. Utter collapse could happen I guess, but by 1943 I will be in a better position to bomb oil there than I am now.

6) Major naval air action near Rabaul. Same story, different players. Everything at Rabaul put on naval attack. The cruisers there are flushed to go hunt carriers. Figure maneuverability is better than leaving them disbanded in port to be sunk there. The B-17s are numerous, but not good naval skills. Still, they knock down a fair number of pre-war Zero pilots from Shokaku. Some of them are found to be on Training when the big Forts show up! (As always, animation results on critical hits and losses exceed the combat report.) Overall though a bad day for the Allies as yet another IJN carrier force comes in close, punches the good guys, and runs away laughing. Some day . . .

Morning Air attack on TF, near Lihir at 110,120

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 37 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 35

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed, 11 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato
BB Yamashiro
CV Hiryu
CV Shokaku
CVL Ryujo

Morning Air attack on TF, near Lihir at 110,120

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 26 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 29

Allied aircraft
SBD-3 Dauntless x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 4 destroyed

Morning Air attack on TF, near Lihir at 110,120

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 2 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku

Morning Air attack on TF, near Lihir at 110,120

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 22

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo

Morning Air attack on TF, near Lihir at 110,120

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 23 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12

Allied aircraft
PBY-5 Catalina x 8

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
PBY-5 Catalina: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Hiryu

The Japanese response on the cruisers.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Lihir at 112,124

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 57 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 57
B5N1 Kate x 16
B5N2 Kate x 21
D3A1 Val x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N1 Kate: 1 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CA Louisville, Torpedo hits 2, heavy damage
CL Adelaide, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Leander
DD Voyager

Morning Air attack on TF, near Feni Islands at 110,126

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 8 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 2 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
D3A1 Val x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
PC Formalhaut, Bomb hits 4, and is sunk
AM Kiwi, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk


Morning Air attack on TF, near Lihir at 112,124

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 34 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
CL Adelaide, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Louisville, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CL Leander, Bomb hits 3, on fire

The Allies get in one lick. The Beaufighter is my new 1942 prom date:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Lihir at 110,120

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7

Allied aircraft
Beaufighter Ic x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufighter Ic: 3 destroyed, 6 damaged
Beaufighter Ic: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CV Hiryu
CS Nisshin, Shell hits 5, Bomb hits 2

7) He knows a bunch of cripples are in Soerbaja patching for a run to freedom. He port bombs. CAP here is 1-2 planes on a good day now.

Afternoon Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 16 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 18

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 13 damaged
G3M2 Nell: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CA Exeter, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Port hits 1

I have to make some decisions at Rangoon. Neither stack is enough to take either city. I can 1) Withdraw each, one to Bassein/Prome, the other to Toungoo, and hunker down to await some multi-engine air. He won't have the Burma fuel. 2) Shift most of the healthy Chinese units over to Rangoon to work with the Brit and Indian arty, engineers, and armor. That stack has been pretty beat up though. I have no idea of the supply state in Rangoon. 3) Stay, take the damage, and keep knocking down his 2Es and pilots with AA. When/if Chungking falls the Chinese won't rebuild, however. 4) Attack each city with each stack once, try to kill some enemy at bad ratios, then retreat, or 5) Move most of the Pegu stack to take Moulmein, the source of a lot of the 2E raids. Or Chiang Mai, and cut the RR. 6) Other?

If I had some air I could take out the LI at Rangoon and force more TFs to run past my subs. But I don't have the air. I have heavy surface forces at Colombo, but they'd be slaughtered coming close to Rangoon to bombard or hunt. Port Blair is a solid base, but again, no airplanes to be had.

I'm tending toward #2 right now. Need to ponder some more.

[CaptBeefheart]

The fact that you still have Surabaya in August 1942 is pretty amazing, not to mention Rabaul. Oh, and every time I see the U.S.S. Sculpin, I go into Homer Simpson mode: "Hmmmm, Sculpin.... [slobbers, passes out]."

Cheers,
CC

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

The fact that you still have Surabaya in August 1942 is pretty amazing, not to mention Rabaul. Oh, and every time I see the U.S.S. Sculpin, I go into Homer Simpson mode: "Hmmmm, Sculpin.... [slobbers, passes out]."

Cheers,
CC

I tried to give him Rabaul, but he didn't want it. [:)] I 100% withdrew from Jan/42 until early summer, but it sat empty. So I figured I'd move back in.

I didn't know Sculpin was a brew. To me it's always been the sub which, while being sunk, generated one of the MOHs awarded to the service in WWII, and the only one to a non-CO. From Wikipedia:

"The account of Sculpin's final patrol was given by the surviving members of her crew, who were liberated from Japanese prisoner of war camps after V-J Day. On 16 November, she had arrived on station and had made radar contact with a large, high-speed convoy on the night of 18 November. Making a fast end run on the surface to attack on the morning of 19 November, she was in firing position but was forced to dive when the convoy and its escorts zigged toward her. When the Japanese task force changed course, Sculpin surfaced to make another run, but was discovered by Yamagumo,[20] which the convoy commander had left behind for just this eventuality,[20] only 600 yards (550 m) away. Diving fast, the submarine escaped the first salvo of depth charges. A second string of "ash cans" knocked out her depth gauge and caused other minor damage. She evaded the destroyer in a rain squall and around 1200 attempted to come to periscope depth. The damaged depth gauge stuck at 125 feet (38 m), so the submarine broached and was again detected. She immediately submerged and the destroyer attacked with a pattern of 18 depth charges. There was considerable damage, including temporary loss of depth control. As a result, Sculpin ran beyond safe depth so that many leaks developed in the hull. So much water entered that the submarine was forced to run at high speed to maintain depth. This made tracking easy for the Japanese sonar. A second depth charge attack knocked out Sculpin's sonar.

The submarine’s commanding officer, Commander Fred Connaway, decided to surface and give the crew of the doomed vessel a chance for survival. With her decks still awash, Sculpin's gunners manned the deck guns but were no match for the destroyer’s main battery. A shell hit the conning tower and killed the bridge watch, including Connaway, and flying fragments killed the gun crew. The ship’s senior surviving officer, Lieutenant G. E. Brown, ordered Sculpin abandoned and scuttled. Before he opened the vents, he informed Captain Cromwell. Fearing he might reveal the plans for the Tarawa invasion under the influence of torture or drugs, Cromwell refused to leave the stricken submarine, giving his life to escape capture. He was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for his act of heroism and devotion to country. Sculpin's diving officer, Ensign W. M. Fiedler (who failed to notice the depth gauge had stuck), along with ten others, some doubtless already dead, joined him.[21]

Forty-two of Sculpin's crew were picked up by Yamagumo. One badly wounded sailor was thrown back in the sea because of his condition. The survivors were questioned for about ten days at the Japanese naval base at Truk, then were embarked on two aircraft carriers returning to Japan. Chuyo carried 21 of the survivors in her hold. On 2 December, the carrier was torpedoed and sunk by Sailfish and twenty of the American prisoners perished; one man, George Rocek, was saved when he was able to grab hold of a ladder on the side of a passing Japanese destroyer and hauled himself on board. (Ironically, Sailfish — at the time named Squalus — was the same submarine Sculpin had helped to locate and raise some four-and-a-half years before.) The other 21 survivors arrived at Ôfuna Camp, Japan, on 5 December and, after further questioning, were sent to the Ashio copper mines for the duration of the war."

[CaptDave]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Thanks for the reference. I had not heard of this book. I read O'Kane's autobiography, "Clear The Bridge" long ago (and still have it.) It is pretty dry and written more for a submariner reader audience. This one sounds more general market.

I'll have to look at this new one, as well. I have -- and read pretty much annually -- both Clear the Bridge and Wahoo. I agree that they can both be a bit technical, but I love submarine books (probably would have been my choice of duty if I had been in the Navy but was Air Force, instead). The one thing that strikes me more and more as I re-read them is how full of himself he was, though I also believe that's a necessary trait for a sub commander as long as he doesn't take it to the level of a certain corncob-pipe-smoking general.

I have another book written by Floyd (or was it Lloyd) Calvert, who served under O'Kane. Interesting to get a different take on some of the episodes. For instance, O'Kane said nothing ever happened when he and Morton went looking for a fight on Midway, but Calvert relates some physical damage to the XO. Hmm... makes you wonder where else the truth was stretched more than a bit.

Of course, another thing I've wondered for a long time was how anyone -- not just O'Kane -- is able to quote from the logbooks, night orders, etc. when the boat was lying at the bottom of the ocean!

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: CaptDave

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Thanks for the reference. I had not heard of this book. I read O'Kane's autobiography, "Clear The Bridge" long ago (and still have it.) It is pretty dry and written more for a submariner reader audience. This one sounds more general market.

I'll have to look at this new one, as well. I have -- and read pretty much annually -- both Clear the Bridge and Wahoo. I agree that they can both be a bit technical, but I love submarine books (probably would have been my choice of duty if I had been in the Navy but was Air Force, instead). The one thing that strikes me more and more as I re-read them is how full of himself he was, though I also believe that's a necessary trait for a sub commander as long as he doesn't take it to the level of a certain corncob-pipe-smoking general.

I have another book written by Floyd (or was it Lloyd) Calvert, who served under O'Kane. Interesting to get a different take on some of the episodes. For instance, O'Kane said nothing ever happened when he and Morton went looking for a fight on Midway, but Calvert relates some physical damage to the XO. Hmm... makes you wonder where else the truth was stretched more than a bit.

Of course, another thing I've wondered for a long time was how anyone -- not just O'Kane -- is able to quote from the logbooks, night orders, etc. when the boat was lying at the bottom of the ocean!

He had an ego, sure. All the great ones do.

I happen to think he had a photographic memory. The trait isn't that rare, and stories told about him by others would seem to bear out a picture of a stern, controlled, highly quantitative leader probably more respected than loved by his crew. Given what he did, what he was awarded, and what he survived after the sinking I'd cut him an infinite amount of slack.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

... When/if Chungking falls the Chinese won't rebuild, however...

Who dem sez dat. Aint git zombies if no Chungking but you git 350 fried rice a month to feed dem. Dem no need starve and turn to zombies.

Alfred

[Alfred]

Before addressing Bullwinkle's suggested options one should look at the overall purpose of fighting in Lower Burma and the present assets (both enemy and Allied) available to meet the preferred outcome.


1. At Rangoon deployed forces are:

Japanese 73k troops (unadjusted AV 3200)
Allied 90k troops (unadjusted AV 3200)

The Japanese have four category 1 divs + 4 category 3 divs (Thai) plus sundry infantry/tank small units that add up to about a single category 2 div. A lot of artillery and engineers are also present.

Allied units are mainly category 1 and 2 divs with only a few category 3 divs.


2. At Pegu deployed forces are:

Japanese 65k troops (unadjusted AV 2000)
Allied 159k troops (unadjusted AV 5550)

The Japanese have 5 category 1 divs.
Almost all of the Allied units are category 3 divs with little supporting units necessary to reduce a fortified position.


3. At Moulmein deployed forces are:

Japanese 24k troops (unadjusted AV 600).

A single category 1 div + a good infantry bde are deployed.


4. All up Japan has 10 category 1 divs, plus about the equivalent of 2-3 category 2 divs, plus 4 category 3 divs in Lower Burma. This means there is no local theatre reserve. No substantial land reinforcements will become available until Java or Chungking fall. By the time that occurs British Empire forces should be on the verge of upgrading to much higher firepower devices which will negate the arrival of "fresh" enemy units.


5. Japan has local air superiority. Three good airbases (Rangoon, Moulmein and Tavoy) provide interlocking air support for Japanese operations. Allied air infrastructure is less developed. There is also a shortage of Allied airframes.


6. Local Japanese naval assets, whilst still potent, are inferior to available Allied naval resources because most of the heavy units are occupied dealing with the situation way over in the Marshall Islands. However, combined with it's control of the air, the Allied naval superiority cannot be successfully brought to play.


7. Local supply sources are insufficient to maintain the large Japanese army (162k troops) and air force deployed to hold the line. It has been a while since I have seen map displaying hexside controls but I doubt that Japan is importing most of its supply from the Chiang Mai railhead. Much more likely is that supply, under the cover of it's air force, is being shipped in to Rangoon.


8. The basic Allied strategy since 8 Dec 1941 has been to bleed enemy fuel stocks dry by early 1943. Operation FUDD was a great strategic success because it ensured denial of the substantial Magwe oil and fuel assets to Japan. It was also a tactical success as evidenced by the fact that the current supply shipments to Rangoon are economically not profitable to Japan because there is no fuel to either replenish the ship bunkers locally or to ship back to the industrial centres on the return leg. There is a steady bleeding of the pre war Japanese fuel stockpile, compounded by not yet having the large Palembang and Java oil fields/refineries.


Bullwinkle has posited the following options:

(A) withdraw both investing forces at Rangoon and Pegu to the nearest Allied bases

(B) as either force at Rangoon and Pegu is currently inadequate to achieve it's objective, concentrate forces at Rangoon with a view to capturing that base

(C) remain in situ with an eye towards maintaining the logistics and airframe drain on Japan

(D) launch one attack and then retreat

(E) move most of the Pegu army to capture the Moulmein air field which is the key to enemy air operations

(F) move most of the Pegu army to capture the Chiang Mai railhead


Some of these options are consistent with the basic Allied strategy employed to date; some are not.

Option (D) is by far the worst. It is not consistent with the fundamental Allied strategy, will not achieve any tactical benefits and will just gut the Allied armies.

Option (A) removes the pressure on Japan. It is the second worst option whose only merit is if Bullwinkle is finding it impossible to feed his two advanced armies. Even then the retreat would have a faint ring of the retreat from Moscow as the enemy air force pounds the units both on the retreat and once they reach Bassein/Prome and Toungoo.

Option (B), which is Bullwinkle's preferred option, suffers from 3 key elements:

(i) the shifting of category 3 divs to Rangoon is unlikely to overcome the Japanese fortification and terrain benefits (plus any matching shifting from Pegu by Japan too)
(ii) time will be wasted as the reinforcing Chinese change their objective and it climbs towards the 100 mark
(iii) does nothing to neutralise the key Japanese asset which is holding the position together (viz the air force) or bring into play additional Allied assets (viz the navy)

Essentially this option is merely trying a bigger hammer to knockdown the front door. The odds for success are poor.

Option (C) is OK but does represent a lost opportunity. The Allied flak will continue to exact it's pound of flesh wherever the army is, be it at Pegu or en route to another destination.

Option (F) would be good if, if, if Rangoon is importing it's supplies from there. I don't think it is. Chiang Mai would still be a good move if it was part of a general move into Thailand, but that is not the case here whilst the key port for such an invasion, Rangoon, remains enemy controlled. Chiang Mai is therefore a side show. Which brings us to Option (E)...

Striking at Moulmein is good. The Tavoy airfield is not a sufficiently good airfield, both in terms of size and location, to fully compensate for the loss of Moulmein. Capture Moulmein and the short range Allied fighters can be brought into play to both confront the current enemy CAS and open up the possibility of deploying Allied naval assets to interdict supply or bombard the Rangoon located enemy air force/army. It opens a port to resupply the Allied army which can move on Tavoy whilst threatening an invasion of Thailand. It outflanks the main enemy forces and exposes the lack of an enemy theatre reserve.

Just don't rely solely on releasing units from the Pegu investment forces if you move on Moulmein. Thin out the Rangoon forces too which can take advantage of the terrain there to have fewer troops present than the enemy. Plus if you thin out the Pegu forces you encourage the enemy to attack the Chinese who are best used holding a defensive position.

Alfred

[desicat]

I just love well thought out strategic discussions.