Mines

[tsbond]

Any advice on advancing through mine fields? I just got the crap beat out of me as Germany trying to advance on Polish strong hold. Everything was going fine until I got bogged down and half my armor wiped out by mines. The infantry was wiped out trying to clear them out (mostly by entrenched troops), seemed almost a losing fight since the mines were all over and I had lost all force superiority during my first advance. Not to mention my underestimation of the polish resistance. They are very tenacious. Which brings up the question if each country has its own doctrine of fighting?? Seems the Italians are worse then Russia at throwing away good troops....or at least men acting like troops No-pun intended to any Italians out there.... And Poland fights hard.

Also I think this is by far the best turn based "Tactical" war game that I have ever played!!! And free!!! I have paid 50 bucks for games that don't even deserve the name war game. This one has got the wife yelling at me to get off the computer and staying up till 2 am. Thanks a lot matrix you’re either my God of War Games or my Bane of Marriage! Thanks for the game keep em coming too!

[Don]

Hi tsbond,

I have a tutorial project going, and just had two turned in concerning mines and bunkers. I also have one on the use of engineers, which is what you need to use to claer mines.

If you'd like me to send them to you, just email me.

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Don

[Pack Rat]

The use of recon helps to locate these fields at a smaller price. Artillery can blast through it but you have to know where thay are and it takes alot of shelling and time to do. It's common to protect the mines with the use of troops or is it the other way around Engineer tanks combined with engineers are the fastest way through but you've got to surpress the force covering the mine field. No easy task for sure.

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PR
http://electricwar.tripod.com/

[appunk]

Somewhat related is an observation about the computer placement of mines in the long campaign. Playing as the germans, I am midway through 1942, and I have had to fight several assault missions. The computer invariably purchases mines in these situations, and the first assult mission I fought, I got bogged down in a polish minefield. Then I made an interesting discovery. It seems as if the poles placed a minefield one hex wide from the north to the south of the map . . . with one exception. The northernmost and southernmost hexrows had no mines. . . .
So, from now on, I always send my recon troops in to establish where the minefield is located, and then send my main force through the one hex gap along either flank.
I like to think of it as a lane cleared prior to the assault.

perhaps in later versions the ai will use mines in a less predictable fasion.

[ruxius]

When you know you have an assault to play you expect your opponent has placed a lot of mine in critical waypoints protected by infantry and strongpoints..well you have to distinguish if you play against a human or the AI ..in the second it's much more easy..as someone told you AI place mines in a well-known pattern...a long line of mine vertical crossing the battlefield...and just one line at all...
so you have first to purchase engineers and
some artillery very useful for smoke..
After that you need some recon troops to locate the beginning of that line...after you
recognized the place you call a smoke coverture just behind that with artillery and proceed with trucks loaded with engineers
to free a corridor in it...trucks are sat to move ...and with smoke you have also to cover a way to arrive to the minefield safe from long-range strongpoints...(so after you recognized them and covered them with other smoke you can think at the minefield..)
At the end put two or three engineers units
onto a single hex with mines.they will be fastest way to open a way ..remember they need some SP-artillery behind them to be covered if some smoke shell do not protect them from all enemy infantry placed just back the minefield...
That's all ..against a human opponent it's much more different because a human is not so stupid to place mine in such way..so things can not be accomplished in this way..
That's all
oh..yes ! I am italian... )

[ruxius]

When you know you have an assault to play you expect your opponent has placed a lot of mine in critical waypoints protected by infantry and strongpoints..well you have to distinguish if you play against a human or the AI ..in the second it's much more easy..as someone told you AI place mines in a well-known pattern...a long line of mine vertical crossing the battlefield...and just one line at all...
so you have first to purchase engineers and
some artillery very useful for smoke..
After that you need some recon troops to locate the beginning of that line...after you
recognized the place you call a smoke coverture just behind that with artillery and proceed with trucks loaded with engineers
to free a corridor in it...trucks are sat to move ...and with smoke you have also to cover a way to arrive to the minefield safe from long-range strongpoints...(so after you recognized them and covered them with other smoke you can think at the minefield..)
At the end put two or three engineers units
onto a single hex with mines.they will be fastest way to open a way ..remember they need some SP-artillery behind them to be covered if some smoke shell do not protect them from all enemy infantry placed just back the minefield...
That's all ..against a human opponent it's much more different because a human is not so stupid to place mine in such way..so things can not be accomplished in this way..
That's all
oh..yes ! I am italian... )

[ruxius]

When you know you have an assault to play you expect your opponent has placed a lot of mine in critical waypoints protected by infantry and strongpoints..well you have to distinguish if you play against a human or the AI ..in the second it's much more easy..as someone told you AI place mines in a well-known pattern...a long line of mine vertical crossing the battlefield...and just one line at all...
so you have first to purchase engineers and
some artillery very useful for smoke..
After that you need some recon troops to locate the beginning of that line...after you
recognized the place you call a smoke coverture just behind that with artillery and proceed with trucks loaded with engineers
to free a corridor in it...trucks are sat to move ...and with smoke you have also to cover a way to arrive to the minefield safe from long-range strongpoints...(so after you recognized them and covered them with other smoke you can think at the minefield..)
At the end put two or three engineers units
onto a single hex with mines.they will be fastest way to open a way ..remember they need some SP-artillery behind them to be covered if some smoke shell do not protect them from all enemy infantry placed just back the minefield...
That's all ..against a human opponent it's much more different because a human is not so stupid to place mine in such way..so things can not be accomplished in this way..
That's all
oh..yes ! I am italian... )

[ruxius]

When you know you have an assault to play you expect your opponent has placed a lot of mine in critical waypoints protected by infantry and strongpoints..well you have to distinguish if you play against a human or the AI ..in the second it's much more easy..as someone told you AI place mines in a well-known pattern...a long line of mine vertical crossing the battlefield...and just one line at all...
so you have first to purchase engineers and
some artillery very useful for smoke..
After that you need some recon troops to locate the beginning of that line...after you
recognized the place you call a smoke coverture just behind that with artillery and proceed with trucks loaded with engineers
to free a corridor in it...trucks are sat to move ...and with smoke you have also to cover a way to arrive to the minefield safe from long-range strongpoints...(so after you recognized them and covered them with other smoke you can think at the minefield..)
At the end put two or three engineers units
onto a single hex with mines.they will be fastest way to open a way ..remember they need some SP-artillery behind them to be covered if some smoke shell do not protect them from all enemy infantry placed just back the minefield...
That's all ..against a human opponent it's much more different because a human is not so stupid to place mine in such way..so things can not be accomplished in this way..
That's all
oh..yes ! I am italian... )

[x6ftundx_slith]

If you don't like mines don't play ANY of the wildbill scenarios.. hes evil with them

Commando Solo

[CaptainBrian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tsbond:
Any advice on advancing through mine fields? I just got the crap beat out of me as Germany trying to advance on Polish strong hold. Everything was going fine until I got bogged down and half my armor wiped out by mines. The infantry was wiped out trying to clear them out (mostly by entrenched troops)...


I try to use the same principles and task organization as the U.S. Marine Corps and Army currently use for obstacle reduction. For a planning model, we will assume our force is an infantry battalion reinforced with tanks, engineers and artillery.

The force is broken into three elements:

Support force- Rifle Company w/ MG Support, tanks and artillery observers.

Breach Force- Engineers + any mineclear/engineer vehicles available

Assault force- Rifle Company reinforced with tanks

One Rifle Company held in reserve

The breaching operation goes as such:

1) Minefield discovered by lead element

2) Support force assumes positions and suppresses the enemy on the far side of the obstacle. The support force is responsible for the control of supporting arms (to include smoke placement)during the assault.

3) Under the cover of smoke and the fire of the support force, the breach force moves up to the obstacle and reduces it.

4) The assault force assumes a covered and concealed position. Once a gap is created, they assault through and hold the far side of the breach until the entire force has passed.

I used a battalion as an example, but any size unit can task organize and conduct a deliberate obstacle reduction.

I also stack as many engineers and mineclearing vehicles as possible on one hex in order to create a gap as soon as possible. I may choose to widen the gap, depending upon the scenario and the size of the force I want to pass through.

I use a mineclearing tank or engineer squad to "proof" the hexes leading up to the breach... Nothing worse than losing a vehicle during movement to a cleared lane.

Smoke is your friend. I usually have the unit that discovered the minefield pop smoke to the direct front in order to create a hasty smoke screen. I then use on-board arty and mortars to reinforce the hasty smoke, followed by OB smoke to create a solid smoke screen. I also will drop arty or run air on known or suspected enemy positions in order to assist in the suppression effort.

The key to a successful breach is coordination of the elements of the breach force and speed. More than two or so turns bunched up at a breach site = lucrative arty/air target. On a U.S. doctrinal note...the minimum number of cleared lanes for a battalion-size task force is two.

[Gruvan]

Originally posted by Commando Solo:
If you don't like mines don't play ANY of the wildbill scenarios.. hes evil with them

Commando Solo

I do agree with you. I am playing (slowly) one of his campagn. On the first battle I just finished, More the half my loses due to mine in surprising places Just makes me Seems to be the middle of nowhere, but this damned gy KNOWS where I will go threw (yes, this is admiration ). The fact it is not very good for nerves. But what an interest difference compared with more classics scenarios and no comparason with IA Campagn. And I though I was good enought for the IA , not when there is a Wild Bill in it ... Challenge, I like it, well, when I finaly go threw .


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New here

[JTGEN]

I disagree. If you do not like mines play Wild Bill scenarios. That is the way to learn to be careful with them. Playing UtoR I most certainly learned to deal with them.

I agree with the earlyer responses on using engineers and smoke and smoke and smoke and artillery and close support tanks to protect your engineers.

Artillery is good against AI as it both exposes and clears some mines but also suppresses the infartry AI puts right after the mines to protect them.

It is also important not to spread your units but to concentrate them on a couple of points were the front is pearced and the sides are covered with smoke.

I do not like to use the hexes on the map edges that AI allways keeps cleare of mines. It is otherwise too easy.

[timc]

I just completed a long campaign as a German and have some advice to add about assaults against the AI. Overriding principles to breaching minefields are: YOU HAVE TO BE METHODICAL and YOU HAVE TO BE PATIENT.

Phase I - Force Purchase
1. Buy all of the large-caliber off-board artillery the traffic will bear. 3-6 battalions of 150mm is a good number.
2. Buy 2-3 platoons of engineers in addition to your core force.
Mechanized engineers get there faster BUT if you leave the halftracks near the breach they will draw fire.
3. Against Americans or British from 1942 on, buy 3-6 platoons of AA guns. I found the towed 37mm worked best.

Phase 2 - Deployment
1. The AI (as already pointed out) ALWAYS purchases an obscene amount of mines and places them in a row from North to South. There is often a double row of minefield hexes. The minefield always starts in the AI's deployment line or 1-2 hexes back. There is a continuous line of infantry positions and fortifications immediately behind the minefield. This knowledge provides you with an enormous advantage that you don't have
against a human opponent.
2. Pick the area you want to breach. For a battalion+ assault I used breaches 3-5 hexes wide. Assaulting all along the front is asking for trouble. An assault is a dagger, not a club.
3. Position your forces so that the breach force (I always used at least a company of engineers) goes in first, then the support force (minimum number of tanks, assault guns or SP artillery, more on why minimum
later.) The exploitation force (basically all your infantry and tanks)stays put in their initial positions. Keep them away from the breach until it's almost practical.
4. Plot your initial artillery prep on and around your breach area. There is no such thing as too much artillery for the preparation. The purpose of the prep is threefold:
a. To destroy or suppress the close-in defending units.
b. To expose mines (you don't need to use recon units)
c. To create smoke and dust obscuring the breach area from flank and supporting units. I found that most of the time I didn't have to use smoke missions. Enough HE works a treat.

Phase 3- Execution
1. First thing on Turn 1, repeat your artillery prep. This gives you fire on the same turn. If possible, reat again on the next turn.
2. Move your engineers forward. You may want to move them slowly to give your artillery more time to work. The support force moves either behind the breach force at a distance of 2-3 hexes or on the flank.
3. Move the engineers (dismounted) onto the minefield hexes. One platoon minimum per hex. since the AI uses 10-20 mines per hex, it will take a full platoon of engineers 3-4 turns to clear a hex if the engineers remain
unsuppressed. If they take constant suppression, they may never get done.
4. As your engineers near the breach, shift your artillery well away from the breach area. I lost more time from friendly artillery suppression than from any other cause. Firing smoke on the breach hexes is a good idea at this time.
5. Notice if the hex directly in front of each of your breach hexes is a
fortification. If it is, that's the end of the minefield. If it isn't, there is probably another minefield hex there. Once your engineer platoons clear a hex, move them forward to clear the next hex or laterally to assist other platoons.
6. Against the Americans and British (I never fought the Russians in that campaign) it is CRITICAL to keep your vehicles and heavy weapons away from the breach area. This includes the halftracks that delivered the engineers. The reason is that vehicles attract airstrikes and one bomb load from a B-26 can vaporize an engineer company (Let's not even talk about the verdamnt B-17s). I've found it's useful to give the AI something else to target with airstrikes, like a couple of Tigers on a ridgeline in plain site. When he sends airstrikes against them, they run into your carefully planned AA sites along the flight corridor. Watch how the AI runs airstrikes and plan accordingly.
7. Once a corridor gets clear (an unmined path into the enemy fortifications) start feeding your exploitation force carefully through. Don't get in a hurry and don't assume all the enemy is dead just because you can't see them.
8. Watch your flanks. As the dust from the bombardment settles, your breaching force will become more visible and start taking fire from previously suppressed units. Keep good spotting units in position to observe enemy defensive positions and call artillery on them.

Hope this helps. It worked for me. I found that the most difficult assaults were as an American against the Italians with their horrid 305mm naval guns. I lost two entire engineer companies in about three turns against them. I just can't wait to go against the Soviet artillery.

TimC