A Lemon rises in the East: SqzMyLemon (J) vs. JocMeister (A)

[SqzMyLemon]

Yeah, good points obvert and Pax. I'm maxed out for aviation support so this will have to do for now. It's the only place Japanese tactical air is effective so might as well pile it on. I only posted out of curiosity and to show what was actually being used for those who might be following his comments in other AAR's.

[PaxMondo]

You can always overstack air groups for a few turns and then rotate out. 2E's are far more forgiving than 4E's with that. And of course if you are still short Helen/Sally air frames, Ann/Mary's overstack really easy. They seem to hardly even notice that they are overstacked. [8D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Really though, China is at best a pyrrhic victory for Japan. It's not going to change the outcome of the game one iota as AAR after AAR shows. A victory in China does not win the war for Japan.

Not so sure about this statement. In my slowly progressing Scenario 2 PBEM, I'm well North of a necessary 4:1 autovictory level in July 1942. Many of these points have come from exploiting VPs gleaned from China. His Chinese forces are in terrible shape and getting worse as we near 1943. The VPs from crucial Chinese cities that have fallen and Chinese forces liquidated have been an important part of this balanced VP diet. If I can hold on and maintain a 4:1 edge (and autovictory), the victory in China will have been critical to winning the war for Japan.

[SqzMyLemon]

Defeating China can contribute to auto-victory in Scenario 2 for sure. I'll my AAR's, and thus my comments, are based on Scenario 1 where I believe auto-victory is unattainable against all but the most inexperienced Allied player. The troops required for an all out China offensive while attempting auto-victory are just not available to Japan in Scenario 1. Too many areas are vulnerable and ripe for an aggressive Allied player to take advantage of.

I have yet to see a Japanese auto-victory documented in the forum under Scenario 1 or even attempted for that matter.

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
Defeating China can contribute to auto-victory in Scenario 2 for sure.

It will help but taking all of China and destroying all the KMT units (plus a few zombies) will not get you much past 3:1 ratios by the end of 42. To achieve autovictory, you need more (India, Australia, something).

To me, there are several benefits of a victory in China :

1- you get a lot of resources, and some industry (light esp.) close to Japan. And so, you can reduce the resource convoys from the DEI and save fuel.
2- the destruction of the KMT means a lot of LCU VP (in my game, I am close to 17000 in early 43). Those are VP you keep, and they make the Allied player task more complicated (like it or not, VP decide when the game ends).
3- China acts as a very good training ground. After a war in China, you have several infantry divisions with experience in the high 90s, and a lot of trained (army) pilots

Francois

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

It will help but taking all of China and destroying all the KMT units (plus a few zombies) will not get you much past 3:1 ratios by the end of 42. To achieve autovictory, you need more (India, Australia, something).

To me, there are several benefits of a victory in China :

1- you get a lot of resources, and some industry (light esp.) close to Japan. And so, you can reduce the resource convoys from the DEI and save fuel.
2- the destruction of the KMT means a lot of LCU VP (in my game, I am close to 17000 in early 43). Those are VP you keep, and they make the Allied player task more complicated (like it or not, VP decide when the game ends).
3- China acts as a very good training ground. After a war in China, you have several infantry divisions with experience in the high 90s, and a lot of trained (army) pilots

Francois

This is China to me in a nutshell Francois, well said. My goal in China is to destroy as many of the Chinese units as possible for the VP's. The VP's for destroyed LCU's are permanent while the ones for bases are not. I want the fuel, oil, resources and supply generating capacity provided by China for as long as possible.

[SqzMyLemon]

Resuming the game after a delay. I can't explain the Dutch unit at Batavia, but the plan is too attack and see if I can destroy it. All the relevant info is in the tech thread regarding this unit. It has to be a bug as Jocke's screenshot shows 36% prep and the unit in supply. There is absolutely no way this unit can have supply, only 36% prep and almost at full strength if it's been sitting there for months. Anyway, we'll see what happens during the turn.

A note on my current defensive thinking. I plan on loading up bases with repair facilities in order to have a number of festungs established in order to deny the use of these facilities for as long as possible. I will risk losing large garrisons and lots of AA units in order to accomplish this.

I really hope night FLAK isn't as ineffective as many people have been stating. Perhaps under DaBabes it will perform better. If not, it really undermines any kind of defence I can mount against 4E's later in the game. Too bad night fighters seem to have no teeth either.

I'll post a screenshot of China soon.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Resuming the game after a delay. I can't explain the Dutch unit at Batavia, but the plan is too attack and see if I can destroy it. All the relevant info is in the tech thread regarding this unit. It has to be a bug as Jocke's screenshot shows 36% prep and the unit in supply. There is absolutely no way this unit can have supply, only 36% prep and almost at full strength if it's been sitting there for months. Anyway, we'll see what happens during the turn.

A note on my current defensive thinking. I plan on loading up bases with repair facilities in order to have a number of festungs established in order to deny the use of these facilities for as long as possible. I will risk losing large garrisons and lots of AA units in order to accomplish this.

I really hope night FLAK isn't as ineffective as many people have been stating. Perhaps under DaBabes it will perform better. If not, it really undermines any kind of defence I can mount against 4E's later in the game. Too bad night fighters seem to have no teeth either.

I'll post a screenshot of China soon.

Night flak is crap. Night fighters need massed use. So if it's only a several point defense you can do it. There is a simple equation to make them effective. Have more NF up in the air than bombers arriving. [;)]

Seriously. Even the crap NF work if there are more than there are bombers.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
Defeating China can contribute to auto-victory in Scenario 2 for sure.

It will help but taking all of China and destroying all the KMT units (plus a few zombies) will not get you much past 3:1 ratios by the end of 42. To achieve autovictory, you need more (India, Australia, something).

To me, there are several benefits of a victory in China :

1- you get a lot of resources, and some industry (light esp.) close to Japan. And so, you can reduce the resource convoys from the DEI and save fuel.
2- the destruction of the KMT means a lot of LCU VP (in my game, I am close to 17000 in early 43). Those are VP you keep, and they make the Allied player task more complicated (like it or not, VP decide when the game ends).
3- China acts as a very good training ground. After a war in China, you have several infantry divisions with experience in the high 90s, and a lot of trained (army) pilots

Francois

Yes, this is a fair assessment too. China can be contributory to the VPs needed to hold off the Allied dogs. If timing is right, perhaps an Autovictory may be a feasible goal. I didn't mention that my opponent has taken some significant RN losses and LCU losses in toto when Ceylon was liberated too. These have pumped up the LCU VPs garnered.

[morejeffs]

I just was involved with a CG (as allies) and while in the end the game was not decided on VP, it does seem that the empire can
pump up VP by selected culling of the Chinese army...It seems way overdone from an AFB point of view, but if Japan can out produce
the allies in planes, hell might as give them a ton of Vps for slaughtering peasants....And I am sure I would do the same
if I was playing Japan...

[witpqs]

Regarding the comic-book hero Dutch unit which just appeared at Batavia... I read the latest in the Tech Support thread. No big deal overall, just check around to see if bugged units have appeared anywhere else. As far as that unit goes, use it for bombing practice. It has nowhere to get supplies from so will provide a good period of practice runs if you choose to use it that way. Otherwise it will be practice for some ground unit you have available. Any ships available for naval bombardment are a good idea too, even destroyers. Anything at all to disrupt it and have a chance at disabling squads.

But really, it does need a good comic-book hero name to put some fun on the whole thing!

[SqzMyLemon]

Everything seems to be working with the beta now, the exception being Batavia. Worse things could have happened so I'll simply destroy the Dutch unit however long it takes and move on.

Chinese forces are beginning to crumble from lack of supply. Two out of three assaults today forced retreats and Sining's forts have been reduced to 0. Today I did achieve close to 1k worth of casualties to the Chinese from air attack. Chinese units are overstacking many hexes now due to retreats and I will press forward to exploit the gaps appearing in the Chinese MLR. The plan is to march on Chengtu to split China in half and then destroy Chinese forces in detail. Artillery used from reducing the Philippines is being redeployed to China to help reduce the pockets and be on hand for the large sieges about to begin.

Jocke mentioned a long time ago about a ceasefire in China similar to what occurred in his PBEM with obvert or some kind of truce. I didn't really say much at the time, but I'm not keen on accommodating any ceasefire in China. It is what it is. I'll wait until Jocke broaches the subject, until then it's business as usual for Japanese forces in China.

Elsewhere, it's dig and deploy. Here's the latest screenshot of China:

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Jocke mentioned a long time ago about a ceasefire in China similar to what occurred in his PBEM with obvert or some kind of truce. I didn't really say much at the time, but I'm not keen on accommodating any ceasefire in China. It is what it is. I'll wait until Jocke broaches the subject, until then it's business as usual for Japanese forces in China.

What on Earth could possibly motivate you to accept this suggestion? I can't think of anything that I'd exchange for your single best reservoir of victory points.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Jocke mentioned a long time ago about a ceasefire in China similar to what occurred in his PBEM with obvert or some kind of truce. I didn't really say much at the time, but I'm not keen on accommodating any ceasefire in China. It is what it is. I'll wait until Jocke broaches the subject, until then it's business as usual for Japanese forces in China.

What on Earth could possibly motivate you to accept this suggestion? I can't think of anything that I'd exchange for your single best reservoir of victory points.

In my case it was to keep the game going. There was the distinct option to quit out there that Jocke was considering at the time. This is the single most difficult thing to reconcile in my game and with more experience and hindsight I wouldn't do it again. Too many choices had been made strategically with the hope of securing the industry, VP count and killing of the Chinese with no resurrection possibilities again ever, and being able to defend the coast, mountains and Russian border with my China Army troops, giving little chance to the Allies to acquire China ever again.

I don't think Jocke will ask for that again. At the time I think it was hard to reconcile with the historical balance in game. He's seen now how the Allies can come back from the brink and he gets that this is a game with very different conditions than history.

Go for it and take it ALL!!!

[Chickenboy]

Well, in exchange for a "Quiet China" scenario, a Japanese player can agree provided that the Allies foreswear any ahistorical claims on land or VPs for the future. In other words, a "Quiet Kuriles", "Quiet Formosa", "Quiet Thailand", "Quiet Java" and "Quiet Sumatra" in exchange.

[PaxMondo]

[:D][:D][:D]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Well, in exchange for a "Quiet China" scenario, a Japanese player can agree provided that the Allies foreswear any ahistorical claims on land or VPs for the future. In other words, a "Quiet Kuriles", "Quiet Formosa", "Quiet Thailand", "Quiet Java" and "Quiet Sumatra" in exchange.

[:D][:D][:D]



[&o][&o][&o]

[SqzMyLemon]

I honestly don't think Jocke will ask for an accommodation in China now either. I was just providing some previous background information and the possibility of the subject being broached again. I thought I'd hear something when Kweiyang fell, but so far Jocke hasn't mentioned China.

I wasn't sure how I was going to pursue China a few months ago. I know I stated early I was going to try and knock it out. The pace of conquest slowed from operating within stacking limits and then there's been the whole debacle with reducing isolated pockets. I ended up deciding to simply keep the pressure on China and begin withdrawing some LCU's for Pacific duty without necessarily defeating China. I've now since changed my mind and am looking to knock China completely out of the war.

We've discussed strategic bombing in China, or rather Jocke's asked when he can start pummeling my forces there. I've been preparing for Allied strategic bombing in China from day one, but we've agreed to the standard HR of Jan. 1st, 1943 as the start date for Allied strategic bombing in China. I'm good with this and have been preparing my air defences at Lanchow and Sian accordingly.

[SqzMyLemon]

I have spent a lot of supply on aircraft R&D and will be under 900k remaining by the end of October. The long term effects will be felt in 44/45 and if the expenditure was worth it. Right now my priority is conserving supply in the Home Islands which at last count was 1350k and rising by around 10-15k per day.

I'm going to get a number of engine advancements at month end again, notably the Ha-43 and Ha-45 power plants.

[Quixote]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I have spent a lot of supply on aircraft R&D and will be under 900k remaining by the end of October. The long term effects will be felt in 44/45 and if the expenditure was worth it. Right now my priority is conserving supply in the Home Islands which at last count was 1350k and rising by around 10-15k per day.

I'm going to get a number of engine advancements at month end again, notably the Ha-43 and Ha-45 power plants.

I've read this 8 times now, and I'm still not sure exactly what your supply situation really is. Are you honestly expecting to have less than 1 million total supply at the end of October? (and if so, how could you have 1.3 million in the HI right now with supply increasing every turn?) I assume there's a typo here, I'm just not sure where.

P.S. If this isn't a typo, then I still wish you luck! I'm a big fan of novel approaches to the game, but dropping 5+ million supply into R&D in 1942 alone would scare even me.[:'(]

[SqzMyLemon]

Sorry that my post was unclear. I mean I have just over 900k worth of repairs still to complete and will drop below 900k at the end of the month. I think in total I will have spent about 1.7 million on R&D and aircraft factory expansion.