Physical Only ?

[juntoalmar]

But as far as I can remember we were told that a PDF version of the rules & manuals will be included with the game, right? It's far easier and faster to search through the rules when they are digital (and you can underline and add comments to the PDF without spoiling the original book).

Besides that, you can download the rules directly from ADG's official site, so I don't see the problem with people using them to play in Vassal and so... [&:]

[Erik Rutins]

Please see my reply here:

fb.asp?m=3447896

There is indeed a PDF version of all the documentation included on the DVD and customers who purchase WIF will also get a download link, but we feel that the physical aspect is too important to this release to separate it from the release.

[shaddock]

Keep in mind there will be a mix of younger and older folk buying this game. And while the younger crowd might be very comfortable using only PDFs, us old fogies aren't.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: shaddock

Keep in mind there will be a mix of younger and older folk buying this game. And while the younger crowd might be very comfortable using only PDFs, us old fogies aren't.

For example: as a beta tester, I used a printed copy of RAW out of my boxed WiF game for reverences to the rules. I know, there is a PDF also somewhere in MWIF, but I've almost never looked at it. [:D]
I know, I'm oldfashioned... [:D]

[captskillet]

heres one semi-old fogey (57) that has no problem using pdf files.

[hondo1375]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

... but we feel that the physical aspect is too important to this release to separate it from the release.

Could you explain this some more, as I don't really understand the reasoning behind it? Shouldn't you let the customer decide this, and make the manuals optional? Personally, I don't buy physical books at all now, and only use pdfs or ebooks (and these are usually long, complicated academic books). Having hardback books doesn't add any value to someone who isn't interested in them, and just adds to the cost of an already premium priced game.

[Minority Report]

This is a really unpleasant news that we must buy the books to get the game. For those like me who could not care less about having the books, we will have to spend an extra $60 to $80 for those books (maybe more).

After waiting patiently for over 15 years to get a computer version of WIF (that actually works), and about 10 years for Matrix to have it done, everything comes down to a cheesy marketing gimmick to increase margins!

Well, I guess I have to continue waiting until Matrix sees the light, as at this point it does not make much of a difference to wait another year or two.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Minority Report

This is a really unpleasant news that we must buy the books to get the game. For those like me who could not care less about having the books, we will have to spend an extra $60 to $80 for those books (maybe more).

After waiting patiently for over 15 years to get a computer version of WIF (that actually works), and about 10 years for Matrix to have it done, everything comes down to a cheesy marketing gimmick to increase margins!

Well, I guess I have to continue waiting until Matrix sees the light, as at this point it does not make much of a difference to wait another year or two.

I don't think it's a marketing gimmick...I don't believe that...but neither do I believe for a second that it's about the "physical product"

I believe that the manuals have cost enough to have to warrant making sure what they get printed they sell - and that's a one to one sale. Otherwise, doing it any other way (offering digital download with PDF - something they have ALWAYS offered), they would have to a) buy the manuals in bulk to keep the price manageable and hope they sell them or b) charge more for the manuals and print them on a request basis. Either way - it's not about the "physical product" - if that was the case, and they seem to be catering for the boardgamers when talking about the physical product, then they would have the manuals as a side product in the same way they have the map as a separate product for the boardgamers.

Gamers who have never played the game before (of which I am one) couldn't really give a rats about the errata or the differences between the boardgame and the computer game. The product, and the way it's packaged is geared towards the boardgamers of the game.

That's not a criticism - but I'm not buying the excuse given.

The game and the manuals look great by the way.

[wodin]

The reason is obvious. ADG wont want a PC game that would cost a fraction of what the boardgame costs..it would finish off the boardgame which looking at it is struggling as they have difficulty in getting enough preorders for expansions.

So this would have been part of the contract on how it would be sold. Like the boardgame but you get a CD rather than playing pieces. Obvious really when you think about it.

The game has been made purely with the current boardgame players in mind..I doubt anyone else would pay that sort of money out on a game with no AI and three printed manuals. To the current boardgame players it is still a mouth watering proposition even at this sort of cost. To non WIF players I doubt many will take the plunge.

[WIF_Killzone]

Some of these posts seem ridiculous to me. So you don't have a job, or have other priorities, then don't buy the game, buy food instead. This is a premium game and priced accordingly, for the first release.

1) don't want the maps, don't buy them--nuff said
2) Want to buy the game cheaper, without hard covers, wait before you purchase
3) Are excited about the game, would like the hard cover, which most likely only be available for a short time, buy it now before card covers run out
4) If you want the game, and have the money, but don't want the maps, buy it, wrap the hard covers in plastic and sell them on ebay a year from now when they are longer available, buy food stamps and send them to the naysayers in this thread

To me, the post "... The three hardbound volumes + maps will be at a lower price (about half) than the Essen package ($150E) which includes the maps..." is a good news story. Under the price point I thought I would be buying for and I get the hardcovers!!!

There is an incredible amount of value in this game, I have bought games previously that never lived up to marketing hype and have paid at least half, I don't think that is the case here.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: WIF_Killzone

Some of these posts seem ridiculous to me. So you don't have a job, or have other priorities, then don't buy the game, buy food instead. This is a premium game and priced accordingly, for the first release.

1) don't want the maps, don't buy them--nuff said
2) Want to buy the game cheaper, without hard covers, wait before you purchase
3) Are excited about the game, would like the hard cover, which most likely only be available for a short time, buy it now before card covers run out
4) If you want the game, and have the money, but don't want the maps, buy it, wrap the hard covers in plastic and sell them on ebay a year from now when they are longer available, buy food stamps and send them to the naysayers in this thread

To me, the post "... The three hardbound volumes + maps will be at a lower price (about half) than the Essen package ($150E) which includes the maps..." is a good news story. Under the price point I thought I would be buying for and I get the hardcovers!!!

There is an incredible amount of value in this game, I have bought games previously that never lived up to marketing hype and have paid at least half, I don't think that is the case here.

Amen, Killzone, right on. [&o] Actually I was just ready to post this word for word I swear you know I would not lie [:D]

[IainMcNeil]

Yes we thought it was a good news story too but we should know better by now

[Neilster]

There's a lot of "Me! Me! Me!" in some of these posts. Cool...if you don't like how they're doing it, don't buy the game.

We're not privy to the deal with ADG and Matrix thinks the hardcover manuals are how they want to go. Yet, people are stamping their feet like spoilt 10 year-olds and demanding it's done their way without having seen the manuals or having all the information. I'm prepared to bet that when people get the manuals there will be quite a few who'll change their minds.

Besides, how many people whingeing about $50 drive a car far bigger than they need which costs heaps to fill up and a fortune in tyres? Have mega-expensive hobbies that they only participate in occasionally? Think nothing of spending that on beer or wine that's gone in a few hours (if that)?

Yeah, yeah, yeah...all those things are by choice. Well as I said, It's your choice not to buy the game and hence miss out on an amazing strategic WW2 game that'll provide thousands of hours of entertainment, and, amortised over that time the extra cash is...umm...essentially nothing.

Cheers, Neilster

[Erik Rutins]

We looked at it this way - this is primarily a game for tabletop WIF players. It is also an awesome computer wargame just as it is an awesome tabletop wargame, but without an AI in the initial release, that's a hard hill for many primarily computer wargamers to climb, who are used to AI releases. The WIF community, as a primarily tabletop community, is also used to getting a good physical package for their money. The work that went into WIF development and keeping it faithful to the tabletop game was beyond anything we've ever done before. Development-wise, this is about ten normal games rolled into one.

So our first thought was how to do justice to this game and give the WIF community something special. The hard-bound volumes, the first hard-bound large full color volumes Matrix Games has ever released, are the first part. The biggest wargame map possibly ever printed is the second part. We feel those are a key part of doing this release right. Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible.

Regards,

- Erik

[captskillet]

Fair enough, debit card in hand waiting!

[shaddock]

If I had a gripe about anything it would be to wish for a spiral bound book instead of hardcover. OH yeah, and a better, more foolproof way of hiding the expense from my wife

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We looked at it this way - this is primarily a game for tabletop WIF players. It is also an awesome computer wargame just as it is an awesome tabletop wargame, but without an AI in the initial release, that's a hard hill for many primarily computer wargamers to climb, who are used to AI releases. The WIF community, as a primarily tabletop community, is also used to getting a good physical package for their money. The work that went into WIF development and keeping it faithful to the tabletop game was beyond anything we've ever done before. Development-wise, this is about ten normal games rolled into one.

So our first thought was how to do justice to this game and give the WIF community something special. The hard-bound volumes, the first hard-bound large full color volumes Matrix Games has ever released, are the first part. The biggest wargame map possibly ever printed is the second part. We feel those are a key part of doing this release right. Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible.

Regards,

- Erik

Personally, I think you are right with this approach. Two years ago I wasn't far away from Hofgeismar in Germany, where Eurowifcon was being held. I spent a day there and almost all players there said that they really would like to see the game happen, because of the large amount of time and space the players have to invest. MWIF will reduce the time needed because it enforces the rules. And it eliminates cats, kids, wifes and other perils around the maps with the counters.
Maybe the computer guys won't be that impressed at this moment, since there is no AI now. But I think they will buy the game at a later stage. Also: it's possible to play this game solitaire, since it is impossible to keep track on everything (you will make mistakes, regardless which side you play and will exploit those with the other side).
Sure, books are so 20th. century. People are right to critisize this since we are living in the 21st. century and play everything digital. But the board game on which MWIF is based is from the 20th. century too. WiF players would want to have the large map (to push counters around in a large war room to the point where it slowly get's light again the next morning after the day before, having beverages and pretzels at a save place away from the o so important maps and using the Rules as Coded as guide into the war...). They would like to play using the computer with MWIF too, but for those grognards, the new thing is by far the unified map and rules as coded, which gives a lot of explanations compared to RAW.
There are only two WW II board games which stand out of the rest. The first is (Advanced) Squad Leader on a tactical level. The second is World in Flames on the strategic level. Both are way ahead of any other board games ever made.
I hope (and I expect) that quite a few games will be sold to the WiF community as it is now. Of the computer people, there probably will be more people who will wait for an AI.

[AxelNL]

ORIGINAL: Centuur
..
There are only two WW II board games which stand out of the rest. The first is (Advanced) Squad Leader on a tactical level. The second is World in Flames on the strategic level. Both are way ahead of any other board games ever made.
I hope (and I expect) that quite a few games will be sold to the WiF community as it is now. Of the computer people, there probably will be more people who will wait for an AI.

I agree, how about Russian Campaign on an operational level? (Running the risk of igniting a whole new topic here?)

Cheers,

Lex

[captskillet]

Dont forget about The Longest Day..took a 4'x 8' sheet of plywood to set it up..............played that baby for awhile until my friends cat got into his game room..........looked like Godzilla after he trampled Tokyo!

[shaddock]

Cats, gamers version of a computer reset button [:D]