Solitare versus an AI

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: bommerrang

Civilization IV is the best AI I have ever played. Play random continents with 7 AI opponents with a high setting and it will be very hard. It moves smart and knows how to handle navy and air.
I love the mouse wheel zoom and how smooth it is. Not many games seem to duplicate it.

warspite1

Yep - Civ IV is incredibly difficult - I very rarely win at the 3rd easiest level.

[DSWargamer]

I think it humorous I an being branded an anti AI zealot and a bully

AIs suck, and I have seen too many games that prove it.

But as I mentioned, if it brings in the dollars, then sure why not, give them AI fans their idiot AI opponent

The best wargames I have ever played, each and every last one of them, were all played on paper maps. I am ok ranking computer wargames against each other, but, none of them are in the top 10 of wargames as a whole. Not as I see it that is.

As for senseless banter..... the moment you stop refusing something, they start to assume there is no problem with it.

[Neilster]

It's not true to say there are no good AIs. The Command Ops series has one, the AI in TOAW 3 is very good and there are other examples.

How many times do we have to go through this? Expert MWiF players will play each other. The AI only has to be good enough to help teach beginners and to give intermediate players an enjoyable game. The reality is that an AI is very convenient because it's always up for a game when you want one and there's no shame if you make a mistake or get beaten. It encourages people to keep trying and to learn. And as I stated above, almost all computer gamers expect one.

You'll be able to play as much MWiF as you want against humans both before and after the AI is available. If you're not interested in an AI then cool...don't worry about it. PBEM and multiplayer appear to be coming first so the AI development isn't going to affect you.

Cheers, Neilster

[composer99]

The AI will also, I think, serve as a useful foil for testing strategies. It's damn hard to try something unusual when your opponent (you) knows exactly what you're up to.

[DSWargamer]

"It's not true to say there are no good AIs. The Command Ops series has one, the AI in TOAW 3 is very good and there are other examples."

I own the Panther Games series as well as TOAW III as well as likely all the other wargames you own

I LIKE Panthers Games for the way they were designed. I like the forced command and control logic of not responding immediately to a simple mouse click.

But the thing is, a challenge from an AI is like a good joke, good the first time, but once you have heard it, often there is nothing special left. I have noticed, that the best part of Battle Academy is always the first time you play any of the battles in the campaigns, as you don't know the battle yet, won't know the reinforcement schedule and as a result, if you make bad choices, you pay for it. On the third play through though, the AI is usually at a disadvantage. Now vs a human, BA is definitely a challenge.

Too many regard a game as 'challenging' for the wrong reasons. Yes WitE can be challenging, but so is painting your kitchen with a toothbrush And thus, it is often not about the complexity, but rather the level of the work load. The AI won't be actually better, you are simply making yourself overloaded. I prefer to play Civilization on a massive map, with as many AI civs as possible, just to max out the work load. Because on Deity level, you vs a single AI on a small map, it's no real challenge. The AI will not 'know' the game in advance whereas the human will remember all the previous games, will thus be 'thinking' which is the best way to approach each map they find themselves on.

WiF will be considered a great boon to every wargamer that essentially couldn't care if computer wargames were ever given AIs at all.
Because every wargamer, regardless of AI fan or not, lives in a home that likely simply will never have a room dedicated solely to playing maps best set up in a warehouse.

Those that insist on playing vs an AI no doubt will desire the AI first. Likely will have the same laundry list of reasons I personally don't consider justifiable. Not enough people to play... not enough time...live in the wrong area... I make my life conform to my needs. It's not like there are no games out there that are global grand strategy and with an AI I can name several.

[pzgndr]

The AI will also, I think, serve as a useful foil for testing strategies. It's damn hard to try something unusual when your opponent (you) knows exactly what you're up to.

I have done this too, guiltlessly trying something unusual, cuz the AI don't complain if I screw up an otherwise good game. And sometimes an AI (at least my scripted AI on higher difficulty settings for my Advanced Third Reich mod) will try something unusual and catch me offguard. Contrary to some assertions, it is possible to program/script a computer opponent to be nefarious, it just takes quite a bit of effort. [;)]

[composer99]

Likely will have the same laundry list of reasons I personally don't consider justifiable. [...] I make my life conform to my needs.

Get off that high horse, please and thank you. You don't get to decide for other people what are or aren't justifiable reasons for their game-playing preferences or constraints.

[brian brian]

A huge strength of World in Flames vs other games is that there is no fixed "reinforcement schedule" anyone can learn. Once I started playing it and deciding which units my forces received, I knew I would never play a strategic level WWII game with a classic wargame reinforcement schedule ever again.

[michaelbaldur]

you can really win or loss the game with production.


I have seen the German player building to many armoured units, but no offensives.

and I have seen USA building it´s entire fleet. literally every ship. and was to late with the second front.

and the Japanese player who forgot to build NAVs and pilots.


so you really need a build strategy. so you know how many of each units you will need (roughly)

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Get off that high horse, please and thank you. You don't get to decide for other people what are or aren't justifiable reasons for their game-playing preferences or constraints.

+1

Why do some folks insist on telling other folks how they can or cannot play with their toys?? It must really bother them that someone somewhere does something differently than they do. OMG!! Whatever. [8|]

[DSWargamer]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Likely will have the same laundry list of reasons I personally don't consider justifiable. [...] I make my life conform to my needs.

Get off that high horse, please and thank you. You don't get to decide for other people what are or aren't justifiable reasons for their game-playing preferences or constraints.

Must be a language barrier. I said "I don't personally consider justifiable". I NEVER said you will accept this without question.

I am just making it clear, your complaints might get no where with me.

[DSWargamer]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

ORIGINAL: composer99

Get off that high horse, please and thank you. You don't get to decide for other people what are or aren't justifiable reasons for their game-playing preferences or constraints.

+1

Why do some folks insist on telling other folks how they can or cannot play with their toys?? It must really bother them that someone somewhere does something differently than they do. OMG!! Whatever. [8|]

Why are some of you such timid little schmucks, that anything I post sounds like a demand?

I sure hope you boys play the game better than you defend your arguments. Your petulant reactions sound more like hysterical crying. I expect that from children, not grown men.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
The 'Hell no, we won't buy' group because there is no AI may be (I do stress may) be those that never had to play these types of games in physical form, i.e. actual physical maps and counters, solitare if they wanted to play them at all. So for this group, not having an AI is a big deal.

It's time to get back on Numdydar's topic. Not having an AI at all with no intention of providing one IS a big deal, and Decision Games' decision to do this with War In Europe has probably restricted their sales. So be it. But Matrix has made the decision to provide an AI for MWiF, which is a plus for most customers who expect one regardless of whatever others feel about it.

Personally I look forward to having a computer opponent and I'm disappointed that I have to wait, but by the same token I don't fully understand the "Hell no, we won't buy [yet]" group. I've never even played the WiF boardgame, so regardless of having an AI or not it's going to take me time to learn the rules, learn the game mechanics, learn the game interface, etc. I already know how to play WWII grand strategy games and have done so versus myself, others and computer opponents, so it's no biggie to run MWiF through its paces and learning how to do what I want to do. I figure by the time I start getting comfortable with all that, Steve will have the AI upgrade ready to roll out. It's not like MWiF will be the only game I will play in my spare time, so I don't mind waiting a bit longer and using the time to learn the game. Solitaire is fine, been there done that.

[gridley]

I envy you guys who can play solitaire...I've tried before, just can't do it. I'll play a bit of solitaire to learn the interface, but that's about it. Then it's on to netplay. [:)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: gridley

I envy you guys who can play solitaire...

warspite1

Just used to it I guess - been playing with myself since I was a teenager....


....Avalon Hill's Bismarck got me started [:D]

[captskillet]

been playing with myself since I was a teenager....

if you dont quit you're gonna go blind.[:'(]

[gridley]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: gridley

I envy you guys who can play solitaire...

warspite1

Just used to it I guess - been playing with myself since I was a teenager....


....Avalon Hill's Bismarck got me started [:D]

I knew this joke was coming...but as she said "I didn't think it would be so fast!"

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: gridley

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: gridley

I envy you guys who can play solitaire...

warspite1

Just used to it I guess - been playing with myself since I was a teenager....


....Avalon Hill's Bismarck got me started [:D]

I knew this joke was coming...but as she said "I didn't think it would be so fast!"

warspite1

[:)]

[Numdydar]

Yes once you learn to play by yourself, having others around does not seem that important [:D]

[Aurelian]

I have the Vassal module for Red Star Rising, Just can't bring myself to play solitaire.

I set up Russia Beseiged, play a turn or two, get bored.

Rather have an AI for reasons I stated the last time we had this discussion.