Airplanes

[offenseman]

[&o] This is simply amazing stuff. Those of us who play using this data will be forever in your collective debt. Thank you very much for all the dedication and hard work.

[Symon]

Almost done with everything but need to finish Allied fighters. Couple more days and everything should be good.

Erm, bombers might get shot down a bit more. There is no more bombing from impossible to reach altitudes. There is no more recon from impossible to reach altitudes, there is always "something', "somewhere" that can reach out and touch them. Hi-alt planes get hi-alt bennys. Low/Moderate alt planes get Low/Moderate alt bennys. later war carrier battles will depend on the "skills" of the pilots, because the planes just might be a skoosh better matched within the altitude bands.

Ciao. JWE

[offenseman]

LoBaron, RobBrennan and I are waiting to start a DBB-C game until these new values come around. I think I can safely speak for them that this is great news!

Since we might be the first or close to the first to use this info, if you want any feedback, let me know.

[:)]

[Symon]

Well then, I had better get my butt in gear, hadn't I.

[Symon]

Ok, calcs are done and now it’s just copy/pasting into the aircraft data file. Talk about boring and repetitive. Woof !! Might be good to deal with the concept changes for individual types.

Bombers first. Only thing really adjusted with bombers is MaxAlt. We are assuming that gamers will use bombers to carry and drop bombs. The reported service ceiling, and thus the game ceiling, for many of these planes is in the ‘clean/design/combat’ condition – armament, ammo, nominal fuel, no bombs. But that is not how they work.

The B-17 has a “service ceiling” of 36-37000; the B-29 can get to 42000 – technically. But with mission fuel and a bomb load, both of them struggled, mightily, to get to 26-28000. The longer the mission, the more fuel consumed, the lighter the plane, and the higher they can get, but there is no way they can get much over 30k without they drop their bombs (B-29 could, but just barely; B-17 or B-24 couldn’t).

So MaxAlt is predicated on carrying the ‘game nominal’ bomb load. Extended range doesn’t buy much, since the lighter bomb load is compensated by the increased fuel. You get a technically better altitude, but the game only gives you “one” altitude, so nominal trumps.

Had to tweak bombers because of the fighter tweaks – law of unanticipated consequences. So no more invulnerable bombers. Many will now fly within effective defensive fighter data envelopes.

Yes, defensive fighter ceilings are also adjusted to compensate. But that’s for the next post.[8D]

[Symon]

BTW, all of this is because of Brian Wisher (BigB) from the original Air Team. All I really wanted to do was tweak the speeds of a few IJ planes, but then Brian comes along with his mod and thoughts, and it was like, Woof!! This makes sense !! So started to fiddle, and just like the tar baby, got deeper and deeper, untill it became a "project". Much of the philosophy and conceptualization of this mod is due to Brian. He thought of it, we just implemented it.

[LoBaron]

[Symon]

Okey doke, just a quick update. I have 87 planes left to do out of 555. A lot of these are recon types that have similar characteristics to their F, NF, whatever, brethren, but need their altitudes whacked. Then need to clean up some NF stuff, but that shouldn't take long.

555 entries is a lot of planes. If I knew what I was getting into, I would have bought a poop load more Mount Gay, Black Barrel. Makes a nice rum punch with an Emilia Romagna, pomegranate soda (with ginger) !!

[PaxMondo]

John,

You do know how to beverage. Gotta get down there sometime and hoist a few with you! [8D]

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: Symon


If I knew what I was getting into, I would have bought a poop load more Mount Gay, Black Barrel. Makes a nice rum punch with an Emilia Romagna, pomegranate soda (with ginger) !!

Sounds like you took just a little too much California wit ya when you left this fair state.[:D]

Buck

[Big B]

Thanks John [:)]

[Symon]

The A2A code works exactly the same, only some of the data is different. There is still the bounce, sweeps, CAP, etc.., so there’s still much to talk about. Allied planes have an advantage at altitude (because they did), but it is still a later war phenomenon. Thing is the “height” advantage is no longer huge: the advantage is more in the speed/maneuver combo at “height”.

Thus, it’s important to know your specs and make your hi-speed, hi-maneuver-at-hi-altitude, planes serve as your interceptors (because they did). You will have some Jacks and Tonys early on, and more as time goes by [;)].

Even if Allied planes get the bounce, IJ planes won’t be easy meat. There are quite a few 400 mph IJ planes, with nasty maneuver, in the moderate altitude bands. So ‘boom & zoom’ works once, but things will get ‘furball’ if the IJ pilots are any good (because they did).

Certainly not perfect, and certainly not ‘hysterical’, but a bit mo’ beda’ mon when it comes to results, if played righteous [8D].

Anyway, here’s some US and IJ plane’s new altitude ceilings; Brits conform to the algorithm. For speeds, you are just gonna have to look [;)].

26-27k – P-40
28-29k – P-36, P-39, P-40, F2A
30-31k – P-39, F4F, FM1/2, F4U
32-33k – P-40, F6F
34-35k – P-38, F4U, F7F, F8F
36-37k – P-47, P-51
38k – P-38, P-47

26-27k –
28-29k – A5M, A6M, Ki-27
30-31k – N1K2, Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-45, Ki-61, Ki-84 Ki-100
32-33k – A6M, A7M, J2M, N1K1-J, Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-61, Ki-84
34-35k – J2M5, N1K5, Ki-61-II, Ki-93
36-37k – Ki-83, Ki-94-II, Ki-100-II, Ki-102
38k –

[ny59giants]

John,

A couple of quick questions. I went to DBB website and the various scenarios still show the versions are from 2012. Have any and/or all of them been updated with this data?? I ask as I'm playing DBB 30 and would like to add these changes to my game.

Has John 3rd been in touch with you to have this data changed for Reluctant Admiral mod??

Again, thanks for all your hard work here!! [&o][&o]

[JohnDillworth]

Several IJ planes will show up much more nicely, several Allied planes

Terrific, just what we need. So now the Japanese will have superior aircraft in unlimited numbers much earlier than possible while the Allies will have to keep making to with historical production and now some models being downgraded. Just what this game needs, less and less historical balance. How about a mod the gives Japan atomic bombs instead of the Allies?

[LoBaron]

Sounds extremely promising JWE! I very much look forward to our next PBEM with thos plane stats. Thanks again!

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Several IJ planes will show up much more nicely, several Allied planes

Terrific, just what we need. So now the Japanese will have superior aircraft in unlimited numbers much earlier than possible while the Allies will have to keep making to with historical production and now some models being downgraded. Just what this game needs, less and less historical balance. How about a mod the gives Japan atomic bombs instead of the Allies?

Ahhhh, terrific! Exactly what this thread needs. An I-better-don´t-think-twice whining post with complete lack of respect for the work of others. If you don´t like it, don´t play DBB. Noone forces you to. [8|]

[offenseman]

To JohnDillworth: Since you believe that, there is nothing for you to see here. Move along...

JWE and team, thank you again for all the hard research and work. Bravo! [&o]

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
John,

A couple of quick questions. I went to DBB website and the various scenarios still show the versions are from 2012. Have any and/or all of them been updated with this data?? I ask as I'm playing DBB 30 and would like to add these changes to my game.

Has John 3rd been in touch with you to have this data changed for Reluctant Admiral mod??

Again, thanks for all your hard work here!! [&o][&o]

Nothing updated yet. Still finishing up Allied planes. Yes, have John 3s airplane file, so can port things over soon as it’s finished.

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
So now the Japanese will have superior aircraft in unlimited numbers much earlier than possible while the Allies will have to keep making to with historical production and now some models being downgraded. Just what this game needs, less and less historical balance. How about a mod the gives Japan atomic bombs instead of the Allies?

Might want to look at the file. You might be surprised.[;)]

Besides, it’s just the airplane file. If you don’t want to use it, just drop the old one back in. No big.

Am not really interested in what sorts of exploits that weenie wargamers can find. That's not the point of the game.
Actually, Japan won’t have superior airplanes (because they didn’t). What they get is “nominal” airplanes (because they did).
As to altitude (ceiling), “everybody” gets taken to their effective “operational/combat” ceilings under “military” power. So what’s the problem?
As to speed, “everybody” gets judged on Vmax at CritAlt, under “military” power. So what’s the problem?
As to maneuver, “everybody” gets judged on their actual airframe coefficients and their actual HP/Alt curves at “military” power, so the bands are more fine grained. So what’s the problem?
As to power, “everybody” gets judged on exactly the same basis of “military” power being maximum rated power for at least 15 minutes, continuous. So what’s the problem?
The air stuff was originally done on a catch-as-catch-can basis with much (most) being imported from WiTP. The air guys simply didn’t have the time to do this kind of in-depth analysis. But the analyses are being done in exact conformance with their specs, programs, and paradigms. This is simply what they could have done, given the time and opportunity. So what’s the problem?

You want absolute "hysterical" accuracy, watch a movie. Play this game righteous and you might be rewarded by learning a thing or two.

Ciao. JWE

[Mac Linehan]

John -

Just checking in; am much impressed with what you and the Team have done. I am very excited that, because of the tweaks, a player will have to use each aircraft in it's designed role - interceptor, fighter and so on, to optimize performance. At least I think I am on the right track!

Look forward to studying the stats and learning the intended operational employment behind each aircraft's design.

Excellent work!

Air Warrior wannabe Mac

[drw61]

Well said John, Thanks for working on this.
Daryl

ORIGINAL: Symon

Might want to look at the file. You might be surprised.[;)]

Besides, it’s just the airplane file. If you don’t want to use it, just drop the old one back in. No big.

Am not really interested in what sorts of exploits that weenie wargamers can find. That's not the point of the game.
Actually, Japan won’t have superior airplanes (because they didn’t). What they get is “nominal” airplanes (because they did).
As to altitude (ceiling), “everybody” gets taken to their effective “operational/combat” ceilings under “military” power. So what’s the problem?
As to speed, “everybody” gets judged on Vmax at CritAlt, under “military” power. So what’s the problem?
As to maneuver, “everybody” gets judged on their actual airframe coefficients and their actual HP/Alt curves at “military” power, so the bands are more fine grained. So what’s the problem?
As to power, “everybody” gets judged on exactly the same basis of “military” power being maximum rated power for at least 15 minutes, continuous. So what’s the problem?
The air stuff was originally done on a catch-as-catch-can basis with much (most) being imported from WiTP. The air guys simply didn’t have the time to do this kind of in-depth analysis. But the analyses are being done in exact conformance with their specs, programs, and paradigms. This is simply what they could have done, given the time and opportunity. So what’s the problem?

You want absolute "hysterical" accuracy, watch a movie. Play this game righteous and you might be rewarded by learning a thing or two.

Ciao. JWE

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: drw61

Well said John, Thanks for working on this.
Daryl

ORIGINAL: Symon

Might want to look at the file. You might be surprised.[;)]

Besides, it’s just the airplane file. If you don’t want to use it, just drop the old one back in. No big.

Am not really interested in what sorts of exploits that weenie wargamers can find. That's not the point of the game.
Actually, Japan won’t have superior airplanes (because they didn’t). What they get is “nominal” airplanes (because they did).
As to altitude (ceiling), “everybody” gets taken to their effective “operational/combat” ceilings under “military” power. So what’s the problem?
As to speed, “everybody” gets judged on Vmax at CritAlt, under “military” power. So what’s the problem?
As to maneuver, “everybody” gets judged on their actual airframe coefficients and their actual HP/Alt curves at “military” power, so the bands are more fine grained. So what’s the problem?
As to power, “everybody” gets judged on exactly the same basis of “military” power being maximum rated power for at least 15 minutes, continuous. So what’s the problem?
The air stuff was originally done on a catch-as-catch-can basis with much (most) being imported from WiTP. The air guys simply didn’t have the time to do this kind of in-depth analysis. But the analyses are being done in exact conformance with their specs, programs, and paradigms. This is simply what they could have done, given the time and opportunity. So what’s the problem?

You want absolute "hysterical" accuracy, watch a movie. Play this game righteous and you might be rewarded by learning a thing or two.

Ciao. JWE

+1

[&o][&o][&o]