Physical Only ?

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: AxelNL

ORIGINAL: Centuur
..
There are only two WW II board games which stand out of the rest. The first is (Advanced) Squad Leader on a tactical level. The second is World in Flames on the strategic level. Both are way ahead of any other board games ever made.
I hope (and I expect) that quite a few games will be sold to the WiF community as it is now. Of the computer people, there probably will be more people who will wait for an AI.

I agree, how about Russian Campaign on an operational level? (Running the risk of igniting a whole new topic here?)

Cheers,

Lex

That's a game I almost bought, but passed on. I've never played it.

[DBeves]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Please see my reply here:

fb.asp?m=3447896

There is indeed a PDF version of all the documentation included on the DVD and customers who purchase WIF will also get a download link, but we feel that the physical aspect is too important to this release to separate it from the release.

Look what you have to understand Erik - is that I am questioning physical only because I need to get this past the wife. Digital is fine for me - as she knows not what goes on in my computer. A big parcel however will get noticed.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: DBeves

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Please see my reply here:

fb.asp?m=3447896

There is indeed a PDF version of all the documentation included on the DVD and customers who purchase WIF will also get a download link, but we feel that the physical aspect is too important to this release to separate it from the release.

Look what you have to understand Erik - is that I am questioning physical only because I need to get this past the wife. Digital is fine for me - as she knows not what goes on in my computer. A big parcel however will get noticed.

Isn't that why they invented P.O. Boxes?[:D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: DBeves

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Please see my reply here:

fb.asp?m=3447896

There is indeed a PDF version of all the documentation included on the DVD and customers who purchase WIF will also get a download link, but we feel that the physical aspect is too important to this release to separate it from the release.

Look what you have to understand Erik - is that I am questioning physical only because I need to get this past the wife. Digital is fine for me - as she knows not what goes on in my computer. A big parcel however will get noticed.

warspite1

To be fair DBeves I think you are looking at this completely wrong.

So Matrix have produced, what can only be described as, stonkingly- beautiful, hard bound rule books. Its not just the fact they are hard bound but the look of the pages within screams Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y.

Now you are worried that the Mrs will see these come into the house and give you hell for spending money on this game rather than food an' $%^&. Moreover, if she has her way you will not be allowed to spend the money in the first place....

Well the answer, if I may say, is glaringly obvious. First , you have to understand what is important to you. Then, when you have made the right choice - and there is only one choice - you must love and cherish that which you care for the most. So:

Bye Mrs DBeves....

[bo]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: DBeves

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Please see my reply here:

fb.asp?m=3447896

There is indeed a PDF version of all the documentation included on the DVD and customers who purchase WIF will also get a download link, but we feel that the physical aspect is too important to this release to separate it from the release.

Look what you have to understand Erik - is that I am questioning physical only because I need to get this past the wife. Digital is fine for me - as she knows not what goes on in my computer. A big parcel however will get noticed.

warspite1

To be fair DBeves I think you are looking at this completely wrong.

So Matrix have produced, what can only be described as, stonkingly- beautiful, hard bound rule books. Its not just the fact they are hard bound but the look of the pages within screams Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y.

Now you are worried that the Mrs will see these come into the house and give you hell for spending money on this game rather than food an' $%^&. Moreover, if she has her way you will not be allowed to spend the money in the first place....

Well the answer, if I may say, is glaringly obvious. First , you have to understand what is important to you. Then, when you have made the right choice - and there is only one choice - you must love and cherish that which you care for the most. So:

Bye Mrs DBeves....

An Englishman with humor, whats next [:D]

Bo

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: DBeves




Look what you have to understand Erik - is that I am questioning physical only because I need to get this past the wife. Digital is fine for me - as she knows not what goes on in my computer. A big parcel however will get noticed.

warspite1

To be fair DBeves I think you are looking at this completely wrong.

So Matrix have produced, what can only be described as, stonkingly- beautiful, hard bound rule books. Its not just the fact they are hard bound but the look of the pages within screams Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y.

Now you are worried that the Mrs will see these come into the house and give you hell for spending money on this game rather than food an' $%^&. Moreover, if she has her way you will not be allowed to spend the money in the first place....

Well the answer, if I may say, is glaringly obvious. First , you have to understand what is important to you. Then, when you have made the right choice - and there is only one choice - you must love and cherish that which you care for the most. So:

Bye Mrs DBeves....

An Englishman with humor, whats next [:D]

Bo

warpsite1

Well an American that can actually spell humour properly would be nice [;)]

[WIF_Killzone]

Oh god, here we go, release the hounds!

[WIF_Killzone]

Thank you Eric for the insight behind the walls, I am truly impressed with this approach.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We looked at it this way - this is primarily a game for tabletop WIF players. It is also an awesome computer wargame just as it is an awesome tabletop wargame, but without an AI in the initial release, that's a hard hill for many primarily computer wargamers to climb, who are used to AI releases. The WIF community, as a primarily tabletop community, is also used to getting a good physical package for their money. The work that went into WIF development and keeping it faithful to the tabletop game was beyond anything we've ever done before. Development-wise, this is about ten normal games rolled into one.

So our first thought was how to do justice to this game and give the WIF community something special. The hard-bound volumes, the first hard-bound large full color volumes Matrix Games has ever released, are the first part. The biggest wargame map possibly ever printed is the second part. We feel those are a key part of doing this release right. Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible.

Regards,

- Erik

[Gizuria]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We looked at it this way - this is primarily a game for tabletop WIF players. It is also an awesome computer wargame just as it is an awesome tabletop wargame, but without an AI in the initial release, that's a hard hill for many primarily computer wargamers to climb, who are used to AI releases. The WIF community, as a primarily tabletop community, is also used to getting a good physical package for their money. The work that went into WIF development and keeping it faithful to the tabletop game was beyond anything we've ever done before. Development-wise, this is about ten normal games rolled into one.

So our first thought was how to do justice to this game and give the WIF community something special. The hard-bound volumes, the first hard-bound large full color volumes Matrix Games has ever released, are the first part. The biggest wargame map possibly ever printed is the second part. We feel those are a key part of doing this release right. Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible.

Regards,

- Erik

I'm really not sure about this now. It's definitely an awesome boardgame for sure as I already own two copies of the board game, the original and the Deluxe edition. True, I haven't played either of them for 10 years as I'm living and working abroad but I've been looking forward to buying a computer version to play on my laptop. [8D]

I have absolutely no interest in a 21' map thank you. As an aside, I really like Star Trek but I don't feel like buying a Star Trek uniform or learning Klingon (not that there's anything wrong with that!) and including a 21' map sounds a bit 'Trekkie' to me. I like the game but that's not an attractive feature for me. But I don't have to buy it. Fine. But I will have to buy three hard-back copies of a rule book and pay another $20+ shipping costs on top of that as well? And you say that you guys are reducing your profit margin to force me to do this? I'd rather you didn't [:D]

But we'll wait and see. Even if it's $150 on release I can afford this, no problem. The question is, do I want to pay top dollar for physical items I really don't want/need? After all, I can pick up ACW2 for more than half the price and get a stimulating and engrossing wargame.

[captskillet]

Dog, you dont have to buy the maps, there will an option to buy with and without the 21' map however you get the books whether you want them or not.

[Gizuria]

ORIGINAL: captskillet

Dog, you dont have to buy the maps, there will an option to buy with and without the 21' map however you get the books whether you want them or not.

Yup, I know. I definitely don't want them.[:D] Maybe if I wait until next year, they will offer an option to buy the digital download without the books, especially as printing them will be expensive. They're not going to print up thousands and thousands of these so once they're gone, we'll see. It would actually be cheaper for me to buy the game and ask them NOT to send the books as I'd lose money on the shipping. I'm Scottish so don't particularly want to waste my hard earned dosh.

I am in my 50s now and am very happy with PDFs. I bought a Kindle a couple of years ago and buy digital books nowadays. IMO, hard-back books just seem to be an unnecessary extravagance.

[captskillet]

I'm 57 myself Dog and I have no problem using PDF files and I have a technical college close by that will print em' etc. for cost. If Eric and the powers that be are cool with cutting their profit margin by offering physical + d'load only I'll roll with the punches............I aint Scottish but I dont like wasting my cash either! [;)]

[DSWargamer]

I only have one worry, if I don't order on launch day I miss the first print run.

I am fully versed in all the conspiracy theories, and all the troubles that beset digital products. I am fully versed in all the means by which to sell a digital product. That is not to say you are not either, so please stop reading sentences that are not there.

I bought War in the East, and I knew it was going to be massively complex. I went and got a professionally printed copy of the manual, but even at just a basic black and white printing, with spiral binging and a simple clear plastic cover and card stock back, it cost me 40 bucks.

It's a lot of paper.

Te idea that WiF printed and in colour and in decent type font and hard bound like the great book it will be is a bad purchase is simply too crazy to listen to. Go ahead, complain if you must about me saying that. Talk to the hand boys. I have a 7 inch Nexus and a 10 inch Transformer, and no, I don't really want to be stuck reading a manual that overwhelming as a pdf. There are limits. That's an idea for light reading novels, and 30 page manuals not worth the effort to print as you might read them 3 times before realizing you have mastered the instructions.

There is no time anyone ever actually memorizes the ASL manual eh. If you haven't played in a few months, it means a night studying before the next game.

I have yet to ever master the A3R manual, which explains why I use a copy at the game, they get thumbed all to hell.

The Longest Day is a rare exception to the norm, it is merely a massive board game. It has some of the simplest most elegant rules in the industry.

The Europa design though is like World in Flames. They have both spawned a considerable sum of modules over a time period that allowed them to evolve. They are simply that complex. And the idea of a great printed set of manuals, I consider it an indication Slitherine Group has taken the game seriously.

Yes there are other titles they might have made nice printed manuals for. I have a printed copy of the very colourful Battles in Normandy manual. I figured it was worth it at the time. It helped I had use of a friends colour printer of course But that game while very nice, is not the same magnitude really.

There is no mystery about this being a first time. I don't think there are any secret deals with Harry. I think all the guys wanting this game, likely already own the board game. I don't think Harry has lost any sales. I know how big the game is set up, and VASSAL won't make my kitchen larger. There are limits to how far you can get a utility to perform.

I'm likely not going to get to get the bonus maps for the same reason I likely will not be getting a new stove. The one I have is ok (ok it isn't but sometimes you have to live with your options eh).

The manuals being shipped making it too expensive? Heck if you can't afford the shipping, you likely already can't afford the game either.
Come on boys, sometimes you are the guy that doesn't get to get the game eh. You can't demand the game be made cheap just so you are not left out. That's like me getting bitchy because I can't afford a Porsche.

I'm only suffering from an obsessive need to visit the product page, and confirm, yep still not on sale yet, even though all comments point to it not being before Nov 7 And no doubt, I will be reluctant to go to bed on the 6th. I can actually see myself staying up all night waiting (thought I would throw that out there so some of you blokes didn't think you were the only ones ).

It's too bad this game won't get any fancy launch party at my friends Gamestop store for midnight.

[Dorb]

If you don't want/like the books... put them on EBAY, I'm sure someone will want them.

[Numdydar]

Please also remember that ADG is STILL trying to sell a physical game and its add ons. So by keeping the computer game price in the same ball park as the board version allows ADG to still sell stuff themselves. If Matrix offered everything digital with the approporate reduction in cost, ADG would instantly lose what little orders they currently are getting.

So Matrix has to set a high price for the game with or WITHOUT the physical manuals. If people are so concerned about shipping, wives, etc., Matrix should offer a non-manual option, but you still have to pay the same price for the game as people that get the manuals. Personally, if I paid full price for a game, I would want the entire package I paid for. But if someone wants to pay the same price I did and not get some of the things that the price includes, I certainly would have no problem with that [:)]. Matrix should not either. How about it Eric [:)]?

[captskillet]

I'm not worried about sneaking anything past anyone [:D] if I'm paying for the manuals then I want them. Eric said The only optional part of the order will be whether you want the 21' map or not, if you do then you will pay a price pretty close to what they paid @ Essen (around $207).

[DSWargamer]

Business is business. I don't think Slitherine Group has a moral obligation to see to it Harry gets continuing sales of the board game. Truth is, the board game will always be the superior experience though. A lot are likely getting the computer version for the convenience of space. I know I am.

I would not be surprised if some sales of the game were just for the great books to play with the board game. It's not a shocking notion really. Great unified rules set, and a bonus game added on.

And of course, none of us are privy to whatever personal and private deals arrangements that have been agreed upon where the game is concerned.

When you look at it through the eyes of a consumer, well sure, I could say the game is worth 20 cents. That's all a disc in a disk jacket is worth.
The books though, well it takes a bit more to get those books.

[Gizuria]

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

I only have one worry, if I don't order on launch day I miss the first print run.

I am fully versed in all the conspiracy theories, and all the troubles that beset digital products. I am fully versed in all the means by which to sell a digital product. That is not to say you are not either, so please stop reading sentences that are not there.

I bought War in the East, and I knew it was going to be massively complex. I went and got a professionally printed copy of the manual, but even at just a basic black and white printing, with spiral binging and a simple clear plastic cover and card stock back, it cost me 40 bucks.

It's a lot of paper.

Te idea that WiF printed and in colour and in decent type font and hard bound like the great book it will be is a bad purchase is simply too crazy to listen to. Go ahead, complain if you must about me saying that. Talk to the hand boys. I have a 7 inch Nexus and a 10 inch Transformer, and no, I don't really want to be stuck reading a manual that overwhelming as a pdf. There are limits. That's an idea for light reading novels, and 30 page manuals not worth the effort to print as you might read them 3 times before realizing you have mastered the instructions.

There is no time anyone ever actually memorizes the ASL manual eh. If you haven't played in a few months, it means a night studying before the next game.

I have yet to ever master the A3R manual, which explains why I use a copy at the game, they get thumbed all to hell.

The Longest Day is a rare exception to the norm, it is merely a massive board game. It has some of the simplest most elegant rules in the industry.

The Europa design though is like World in Flames. They have both spawned a considerable sum of modules over a time period that allowed them to evolve. They are simply that complex. And the idea of a great printed set of manuals, I consider it an indication Slitherine Group has taken the game seriously.

Yes there are other titles they might have made nice printed manuals for. I have a printed copy of the very colourful Battles in Normandy manual. I figured it was worth it at the time. It helped I had use of a friends colour printer of course But that game while very nice, is not the same magnitude really.

There is no mystery about this being a first time. I don't think there are any secret deals with Harry. I think all the guys wanting this game, likely already own the board game. I don't think Harry has lost any sales. I know how big the game is set up, and VASSAL won't make my kitchen larger. There are limits to how far you can get a utility to perform.

I'm likely not going to get to get the bonus maps for the same reason I likely will not be getting a new stove. The one I have is ok (ok it isn't but sometimes you have to live with your options eh).

The manuals being shipped making it too expensive? Heck if you can't afford the shipping, you likely already can't afford the game either.
Come on boys, sometimes you are the guy that doesn't get to get the game eh. You can't demand the game be made cheap just so you are not left out. That's like me getting bitchy because I can't afford a Porsche.

I'm only suffering from an obsessive need to visit the product page, and confirm, yep still not on sale yet, even though all comments point to it not being before Nov 7 And no doubt, I will be reluctant to go to bed on the 6th. I can actually see myself staying up all night waiting (thought I would throw that out there so some of you blokes didn't think you were the only ones ).

It's too bad this game won't get any fancy launch party at my friends Gamestop store for midnight.

Heh. [:D] I used to play in a band when I was in my 20's and I spent an absolute fortune on my equipment. It was my hobby and I took it very seriously indeed. No doubt there are quite a few folks for whom WiF is their hobby so I'm not poking any fun at anybody who is excited and passionate about getting their hands on hard-back copies of the rule books. I got excited when I bought my very expensive solid-state echo and Morley wah-wah pedals too. The other guys in the band who shared my passion drooled over my purchases but most of my other friends thought I was crazy.

The trouble is, if you don't have that extraordinary degree of passion, then it's hard to justify spending all that extra money on what is an already extremely expensive computer game. I don't have that passion for WiF that justifies spending all that money so I'd like to have the option to buy a download version only.

[CheerfullyInsane]

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
Te idea that WiF printed and in colour and in decent type font and hard bound like the great book it will be is a bad purchase is simply too crazy to listen to. Go ahead, complain if you must about me saying that. Talk to the hand boys. I have a 7 inch Nexus and a 10 inch Transformer, and no, I don't really want to be stuck reading a manual that overwhelming as a pdf. There are limits. That's an idea for light reading novels, and 30 page manuals not worth the effort to print as you might read them 3 times before realizing you have mastered the instructions.

Good for you.
Then again, I've played WitE, WitP, every (almost) Panzer Campaign game, and every AGEOD game made, and I have yet to print a manual. I even went so far as to scan my ASL rulebook into PDF-format since I found it easier to carry around (not to mention easier to search, add footnotes and errata etc.)

The manuals being shipped making it too expensive? Heck if you can't afford the shipping, you likely already can't afford the game either.
Come on boys, sometimes you are the guy that doesn't get to get the game eh. You can't demand the game be made cheap just so you are not left out. That's like me getting bitchy because I can't afford a Porsche.

Bad analogy. A better example would be you buying a $50,000 new car.
But there's a catch, you have to pay a delivery company a further $25,000 to have it delivered to you.
When you suggest that you don't need it delivered, you can simply pick it up yourself, you're told that in that case they won't sell it to you. [:)]

To me, it's not about the added costs of a printed manual. I'd happily pay full price for the download option alone.
Instead, I'm being forced to pay shipping for a product I neither want nor need.....???
Don't get me wrong, I'm not being petty or petulant (well, not on purpose at any rate). If this means I'll have to wait for the hard-copies to sell out in order to get a DL-only version, so be it.
Nor will I stop buying Matrix games because of this.
But it is one of the more peculiar business-decisions I've seen in a long time.
Being forced to subsidize FedEx in the process seems a little silly. [:D]

[Greyshaft]

ORIGINAL: CheerfullyInsane
... If this means I'll have to wait for the hard-copies to sell out in order to get a DL-only version, so be it.

At that point Matrix will simply print more manuals. AFAIK the Matrix agreement with AGD is that there will NEVER be a download-only version since ADG want to preserve the price point so as to avoid pricing the actual cardboard wargame out of the market.

I suggest you buy the full version then flog the manuals (without the game disk) on ebay.