Amazed at defensive prowess of modern fighters.

[GBS]

I mean in CMANO. I remember games in past years where firing two AIM 120s was money. Now these fighters just turn perpendicular to the incoming missile and shrug it off like a pesky fly....especially Flankers. In one scenarios I sent 6 Dutch F16s, which I thought were pretty good fighters, to take on two Venezuelan Flankers. Fired 24 AIM 120s and got one Flanker. I of course lost all the F16s.
In another scenario playing as India I fired an entire magazine of Grizzly AA missiles at two South African fighters (forget the make)and missed with ALL. I finally got one with AA fire when it came too close but my ship was left totally defenseless except at very close range. It was soon sunk.
Seems to be, based on how CMANO plays, that offensive capabilities of AA missles need to go quite a ways to catch up with the Fighters defensive abilities.
The best defense for an F16 against a Flanker is RUN LIKE HELL!

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: GBS
In one scenarios I sent 6 F16s, which I thought were pretty good fighters, to take on two Flankers. Fired 24 AIM 120s and got one Flanker.

I'd love to see the AALog of that. Usually there's a good reason for everything that happens.

The best defense for an F16 against a Flanker is RUN LIKE HELL!

Or don't go up against it in the first place unless really necessary. There are alternatives to killing a fighter _in the air_.

[GBS]

[
Or don't go up against it in the first place unless really necessary. There are alternatives to killing a fighter _in the air_.

[/quote]
That is why I sent 6 on 2! Does the US have any fighter to counter a Flanker?

[Dimitris]

Depends a lot on the Flanker variant (a Su-35S is a whole different story than an early Su-27). Generally you want at the very least an updated F-15 (preferably with AESA) or ideally an F-22, and lots of AMRAAMs.

You also want to stack the deck in your favor as much as possible (AWACS, tankers, jammers etc. and kill the enemy's counterparts).

[ExMachina]

In one scenarios I sent 6 Dutch F16s, which I thought were pretty good fighters, to take on two Venezuelan Flankers. Fired 24 AIM 120s and got one Flanker.

Just curious: were you playing at 1 second time compression with Hi-Fi mode "on"?

(EDIT: asking because Baloogan reported here that he's noticed problems with some A-A engagements when Hi-Fi mode is not enabled)

[GBS]

When the missiles draw close I always switch to HiFi mode and watch the missiles just disappear which I assume means they detonate harmlessly.

[ExMachina]

When the missiles draw close I always switch to HiFi mode and watch the missiles just disappear which I assume means they detonate harmlessly.

Just to be clear, when you say you "switch" to HiFi, do you mean that you actually go into the game options menu and ensure that the check box is checked? Just curious...

[GBS]

No. I always have that checked, what I mean is I just slow the action down from, say 5 sec. to 1 sce.

[RoryAndersonCDT]

ORIGINAL: ExMachina

In one scenarios I sent 6 Dutch F16s, which I thought were pretty good fighters, to take on two Venezuelan Flankers. Fired 24 AIM 120s and got one Flanker.

Just curious: were you playing at 1 second time compression with Hi-Fi mode "on"?

(EDIT: asking because Baloogan reported here that he's noticed problems with some A-A engagements when Hi-Fi mode is not enabled)

For missile engagements it doesn't seem to have an effect. Its where aircraft get into a dogfight that Hi-Fi mode really helps resolve combat.

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: Baloogan
For missile engagements it doesn't seem to have an effect. Its where aircraft get into a dogfight that Hi-Fi mode really helps resolve combat.

When you say "helps resolve combat", do you mean that in non-HiFi mode, weapons miss more frequently than in HiFi mode? Or that the animation is far smoother in HiFi ?

[Showtime 100_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: GBS

I mean in CMANO. I remember games in past years where firing two AIM 120s was money. Now these fighters just turn perpendicular to the incoming missile and shrug it off like a pesky fly....especially Flankers. In one scenarios I sent 6 Dutch F16s, which I thought were pretty good fighters, to take on two Venezuelan Flankers. Fired 24 AIM 120s and got one Flanker. I of course lost all the F16s.
In another scenario playing as India I fired an entire magazine of Grizzly AA missiles at two South African fighters (forget the make)and missed with ALL. I finally got one with AA fire when it came too close but my ship was left totally defenseless except at very close range. It was soon sunk.
Seems to be, based on how CMANO plays, that offensive capabilities of AA missles need to go quite a ways to catch up with the Fighters defensive abilities.
The best defense for an F16 against a Flanker is RUN LIKE HELL!

It certainly doesn't help that aircraft seem to be able to evade as if they had maximum energy every time. Agility doesn't decrease as they expend energy while evading, or if it does, it's not nearly as much of an issue as it should be (and neither is awareness of the exact distance and bearing of the incoming missile -- which is crucial to timing your evasive maneuvers!). Trying to go between Falcon BMS and Command always throws me off, haha; AAMs in BMS are pretty deadly, especially the AMRAAM and R-77, but in Command (vs agile aircraft) it feels like I'm shooting FFARs instead!

That said, I'm still having a lot of fun with it. This is just an area I'd like to see some refinement in in the future.

[Tomcat84]

Yeah I've brought up that agility affects it too much, and that theres no penalty for depleting energy after multiple maneuvers / or when carrying bombs etc.

It is a known point and should be worked on in future.

In the meantime it is my opinion that setting the Proficiency slider to the lowest setting (on both sides) generates more realistic PH for modern A/A missiles and I will be doing this in the scenarios I am building.

[SSN754planker]

Where are you guys getting this proficiency slider at? Is this in a closed build?

[henri51]

The Flankers were presumably SU-27s and not SU-33s, the latter being for Soviet aircraft carriers. Note that the SU-27s were designed to fight against F-15s and not F-16s which are much less capable than F-15s. So although I am no expert, I would guess that sending F-16s against Su-27s is an unequal fight in the Flankers' advantage. But I would guess that it would also depend on which sophisticated equipment the Russians put on aircraft sold to foreigners. For example US aircraft sold to other countries are generally not equipped with the best electronic equipment available to US aircraft.However I would like to hear and expert opinion on the ability of Flankers to avoid AMRAAM missiles (AIM-120), which are pretty sophisticated and even have the capability of homing in on jamming signals.

As a matter of fact, I don't understand how such a missile can be avoided except by maneuvering or perhaps a decoy, because the missile is either following its radar lock-on or the jamming signal that unlocked it...

Thinking about it, I guess that a parachute-dropped jammer could fool the missile into attacking the jammer, assuming that Flankers are equipped with such a sophisticated decoy.

[jdkbph]

Why do you assume the 16 is much less capable than the 15? Both carry AIM9 and AIM120, and once in contact with the enemy, any advantage, such as range, the 15 might have is irrelevant.

But to the main point...

That an Su27 in CMANO can consistently dominate in a fight with a contemporary model F16 (and I'm taking the OP's word on that... I haven't experienced it myself yet) - let alone with a 2 or 3 to 1 disadvantage - suggests that there's an error or oversight in the DB.

IMHO of course.

JD

[henri51]

Jdk, it was my impression that the F15 electronics (jamming etc) are much superior to those of the F-16, but I could be wrong, since this I read this on Wikipedia...

[ExMachina]

FWIW, I just made a quick test scenario of 3 F16s vs 1 Flanker (not sure exactly which variants you used). Fired 2 AMRAAM at ~20nm at the Flanker and the first one hit and killed it. So with that simple test, I'd guess that either a) you had really bad luck b) there's a DB problem with the specific variant(s) you were using or c) there were extenuating circumstances in the scenario that were somehow favoring the Flankers over the F16/AMRAAAM combo.

[jdkbph]

I seem to recall that with the F16C/D variants (Block 25s) the USAF had more or less abandoned the low cost LWF idea and added a bunch of upgrades - particularly in the avionics and combat systems. By the time the Block 50/52s were rolling off the line they were pretty much on par with the F15C in that department. It's been a while since I've read up on this stuff so I may be mistaken about the details, but I believe this is essentially correct.

Can anyone confirm or correct me about this?

JD

[Wiz33]

Yep. late model C/D have about 95% of the electronics of a 15C except for range and payload.

[navwarcol]

I think that the next patch which will incorporate pilot skill, will have an effect here also... the primary way US pilots plan to defeat an enemy is better training, and that should be a factor with this next patch.