Physical Only ?

[Challerain]

I think ONLY is a strong word. Eric has used the term PRIMARILY, which means they are not dismissing computer gamers entirely. Also, another post in the WIF forum talks about the new European warehouse that is opening early next year which will hopefully reduce the shipping.

The issue now is the horse is out of the barn. Say that Matrix does realize there is a market for a download only option at the same price and announces this as going into effect. Now they have to deal with all the people who bought it and paid for the shipping who may not have wanted the books yet went ahead and got it because it was the only option. No matter what they do they are in a tough spot.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
So our first thought was how to do justice to this game and give the WIF community something special. The hard-bound volumes, the first hard-bound large full color volumes Matrix Games has ever released, are the first part. The biggest wargame map possibly ever printed is the second part. We feel those are a key part of doing this release right. Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible.

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
But if it's not the answer you want............................................. oh well.

well, it's not really that it is not the answer I want, it is just that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is like a car manufacturer saying that "we think this car only looks good in black, so that's the only color we're going to make". ("You can have any color as long as it is black". That was a great solution...in 1900...

So what next? Matrix determines that player's can't properly enjoy a game without a 40" monitor, so you need to buy one of those too? Or maybe that I can't enjoy a Russian front game unless I'm wearing a fur hat? Give me a break...

[aspqrz02]

Since there have been 'suggestions' that a significant number of potential purchasers were ONLY interested in a DD only option for many many months before the release, despite excuses for the decision, they can hardly claim to have been 'unaware' of the issue ... possibly unaware of the number, but not of the depth of feeling or the issue of lost sales!

YMMV

Phil McGregor

[Challerain]

Was it really many months? Maybe I missed it but I thought it was only a few weeks.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

So, let's put this in perspective ...

a) Matrix's pre-release sales assessment was, allegedly, that ONLY owners of the boardgame would ever want to get CWiF

b) That they'd automatically want yet another print copy of the rules, despite already having them

c) That they'd want (b) DESPITE potentially HUGE shipping costs and customs duties for non-US orders even so

... I can almost believe that. Almost, even though (b) is implausible in the light of (c), which beggars belief

What I cannot believe is that

d) Matrix, on finding that there are people who will buy a download only version of the game, and buy it willingly, FOR THE SAME PRICE AS THE PHYSICAL COPY

and

e) Consider it an excellent bargain to avoid excessive shipping and customs fees

and yet MATRIX WON'T EVEN CONSIDER TAKING THEIR MONEY.

From a market segment their pre-release research allegedly didn't even suspect existed.

They are *rejecting* the chance of additional profits ... which makes no sense in any universe that I am aware of.

YMMV [;)]

Phil

Which is exactly which I logically infer that they CANT.

[aspqrz02]

In which case ...

* Choose the 'ship to a false US address' option, which will cost $9 and not whatever ridiculous shipping and customs duties would apply to the completely unwanted physical components and you really don't care what happens to it, do you?

Cost: A$112.99 (whatever that is in US$ or your local currency) plus US$9 in shipping rather than, in my case, another A$45 or so to ship to Oz, where no customs duty or other charges will apply.

* Ship to a US Remailer and pay them to either destroy the whole shebang instead of shipping it on (as long as you pay their basic per shipment charge, which is $8.50 for the one I use) or to strip out the CD, discard the books, and ship the CD to you (which would cost a couple of bucks extra, plus the cost of a CD Mailer and postage, at the remailer I use) if you prefer.

Cost: A$112.99 (whatever that is in US$ or your local currency) plus US$9 in shipping plus US$8.50 to destroy it and, say, another $10 on top of that to strip out the CD and discard the books. A bit more expensive, but still a lot less than shipping the whole thing and, AIUI, a lot less likely to attract the attention of Customs.

* Don't buy it at all ... hoping that Matrix will eventually leave the Buggy Whip manufacturing era.

Cost: Zero. But a lot of missed gaming pleasure.

* Keep complaining and hope that Matrix eventually makes it available by DD.

Cost: Zero. But a lot of missed gaming pleasure.

Personally, I'd suggest the first two options are the best ones for those who really don't want to pay for un-needed physical stuff.

Phil

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Which is exactly which I logically infer that they CANT.

i agree that it seems clear that they can't, but I'm still struggling to understand how/why this sales model is in anyone's best interest, as the reasons I've seen so far are less than convincing.

[Gizuria]

A quick look through the Matrix stable of games reveals that pretty much everything they offer is available to purchase with a digital download option. The fact that they're selling this game without the option for a digital download purchase is a massive departure from the norm. This is not how they do business. I don't for one second believe that they think we need these hard-backed manuals to play the game. So my feeling is that they have had to sell it this way as part of the deal they signed at the start in order to make a computer version of this great board game a reality.

FWIW, I bit the bullet and bought it yesterday and it is every bit as awesome as I'd hoped it would be. After a ten year dry spell of no WiF, it's so good that I don't see me playing very much else for a long time to come. And I know I'll finally be able to play the entire global war scenarios because I won't have to set aside vast areas of living space to keep the boards set up. Before I could only play either the European or the Asain war scenarios/campaigns.

[JiminyJickers]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

The proper answer is in this very thread.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We looked at it this way - this is primarily a game for tabletop WIF players. It is also an awesome computer wargame just as it is an awesome tabletop wargame, but without an AI in the initial release, that's a hard hill for many primarily computer wargamers to climb, who are used to AI releases. The WIF community, as a primarily tabletop community, is also used to getting a good physical package for their money. The work that went into WIF development and keeping it faithful to the tabletop game was beyond anything we've ever done before. Development-wise, this is about ten normal games rolled into one.

So our first thought was how to do justice to this game and give the WIF community something special. The hard-bound volumes, the first hard-bound large full color volumes Matrix Games has ever released, are the first part. The biggest wargame map possibly ever printed is the second part. We feel those are a key part of doing this release right. Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible.

Regards,

- Erik

But if it's not the answer you want............................................. oh well.

But people are willing to pay the same price, just don't want to pay the price for shipping. So that is really not a sufficient answer.

So they are also saying that if you didn't play the board game back in the day, we don't want you to buy this. Or if you do own the board game, but want the digital only version of the PC game, they don't want you to buy it either. It makes no sense.

Anyway, I give up. As much as I would like this game, I give up.

I'll keep an eye on it and hopefully Matrix/Slitherine would come to their senses. I am one very disappointed customer, my faith in this company has taken a big hit.

[Texashawk]

Their lack of response to this thread, frankly, answers the question loud and clear for me. Sometimes compromise is indefensible, it's just what must be. Like politics.

[Lingering Frey]

You can find their responses earlier in the thread. The rest has been folks presenting arguments, sometimes reasonably argued, for why they think they should be able to pick and choose which parts of a product they wish to buy, making it cheaper for them to get (or avoiding blowback from a wife.)

I have the same issue with my cable company.

Some of ya'll in Europe have some crazy shipping costs. And high VATs are just so darn regressive, it's sickening. (Not to say our sales taxes aren't pretty darn bad in some parts of the U.S.)

Personally, I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the books. I'm sure I am going to use them even with the PDF and MANY other "help" sources built into the game. (VERY nice job with that Steve, VERY nice.) Even if I don't, I'm going to enjoy displaying them in my house right next to my other gaming books that are mostly just mementos at this point.

If the price was going to be roughly the same (and I cannot believe it wasn't, look at the early speculation in the thread...the price is MUCH lower than I expected even with the books), I am VERY pleased to be getting the books.

[Dorb]

ORIGINAL: JiminyJickers

ORIGINAL: Dorb

I think when you look at the price of Command:Modern Air Navel Operations at $94.99 with small paperback manual and you look at this with 3 hardbound full size books for $99.99 - "Nuff said"

You are comparing a physical version with a physical version (excluding shipping), I'm confused.

The point of this thread is that we don't want the physical version. Don't care if it was 10 printed manuals made with love and care. I just want the pdf versions, no shipping involved.

I'm trying to tell you the price is still a good value. - No one cares if you don't want the books, get them and toss them in the fireplace and use them for heat if it bothers you that much. Freight is what it is. I paid $27.00 to have mine shipped. It's life, I'm a wargamer, this is a hobby, hobbies are expensive, it's what we spend our disposable income on. Are you going to be able to find and buy another game like this anywhere else? The two biggest gripes about the game appear to be no AI and the paper books/freight. You know up front what you are getting. It is the way it is being brought to market. If I were feeling as strongly about this as some, I would simply wait. Perhaps down the road They will offer digital at a reduced price. Heck by then maybe all the bugs will be fixed and the AI will be out.

By the way, I understand your anger, I went to New Zealand on our honeymoon back in the mid 90's and thought driving on the wrong side of the road was the worst thing in the world(lol), but you know what, I knew what I was getting into before hand, cost a lot of money (I really didn't have) to get there - and it was the best time ever in your country. It was worth it.[;)]
Cheers.

[jzz001]

Nuts!

[sanderz]

By including the books you got to pay shipping - in the UK this means $53!!!! (in american money). Thats just crazy for something you don't need. I'm crazy as i bought it anyway but it still leaves you feeling a bit ripped off.

[Maesphil74]

ORIGINAL: Dorb


You know up front what you are getting.

Correct, but 1 off the problems is that you don't know what you'll be paying when ordering from Europe.
Suppose the game was only shipped from europe and you had to pay 50+ dollars in shipping and then another unknown amount of USD for the clearance/taxes/duties; what would you do?

You really think I'm willing to buy something for 78 euros and then pay another 33 euro in shipping and then still some more euros (could be around 40 euros if they use UPS/FEDEX/DHL) for something you don't want??

It's crazy.
I just spoke to my colleague who has a sister living in Washington; maybe I'll order and send the manuals to her place. It's almost winter I'm sure she has a fireplace somewhere

[Maesphil74]

.

[TheGreatRadish]

Is it not feasible for UK and Euro customers to buy now and receive the manuals later from the European warehouse when it opens? I'm sure the postage costs could be pretty accurately estimated. I'd buy it in a heartbeat with that option.

I actually would want the books, but I'm not paying that just to have them sent to me. However, I do agree that it's not right that this is physical only and I completely sympathise with those who are so angry about there being no DD only option. Very sad.

[bairdlander2]

Come on Matrix,give us the option!!If people want the books,make them optional as the giant map is.We have always have the choice of physical or DD.Why not with this release[&:]Every other pc game released here has the option.Im wondering if this will be the norm for all future releases[&:]

[goulash]

OK having looked into it, as a UK player, I am unfortunately not going to buy this game simply due to the shipping cost of 3 books I technically do not need. Sorry Matrix but it is as simple as that. I am not a miser and I have money I throw at games all the time but this one takes it a bit too far IMHO. I agree that the books should be optional and sent at EU shipping prices for EU players.

I no doubt was thinking about the map as my ideal would be a magnetic wall map. But I would like to choose when to get the books as with the Map. I am not going to be forced into paying the current overall price to get the game to mez

[CheerfullyInsane]

ORIGINAL: JiminyJickers
Anyway, I give up. As much as I would like this game, I give up.

I'll keep an eye on it and hopefully Matrix/Slitherine would come to their senses. I am one very disappointed customer, my faith in this company has taken a big hit.

Same here.
I briefly toyed with aspqrz's idea of using a US remailer, and simply telling them to destroy the books.
But having to jump through these kinds of hoops, and vandalizing perfectly good gaming material in the process is just plain bonkers.