Weather issues

[Numdydar]

Working through Barbarosa and imagine my surprise when I get snowfall on impluse 5 of the May/June turn [X(]. Did anyone do any kind of actually looking at the weather records for the board game? Moscow, which the game places in the Artic zone for some unknown reason has never had any snowfall in May/June. Yet in my game the white stuff is falling down [:@]

At Murmask I can understand this since in May there is a 27% chance of snowfall, while a much less chance of snow cover http://weatherspark.com/averages/33822/Murmansk-Murmanskaya-oblast-Russian-Federation

But to include large parts of Russia down to Kursk as the same weather as Murmansk is absurd. Is there any way to mod the weather tables? Is there any way to add another weather zone to make this a LOT more accurate?

The last thing I want to do is spend all this time setting up a Global War game, get to '41 and have snow falling where it is plainly impossible for it to ever happen. In the board game you could just re-roll or ignore the effect. The only way I can see to fix this, would be to save the game before every weather die roll which seems a little extreme to avoid something that should not even happen.

Of course why there is even a chance of snow in May/June is beyond my understanding. Storms/rain no problem. Snow no way.

[Neilster]

I guess it's a hangover from paper WiF. The weather zones had to be fairly simple or it would have been a nightmare to keep track of everything.

It works both ways too. You can get unrealistically good weather in winter.

Cheers, Neilster

[Numdydar]

Totally get that, but why is there even a CHANCE on the table for weather like this when it is impossible to happen?

[Neilster]

I suppose to get truly arctic weather at Moscow in Winter it has to be in a weather zone where it can snow in Summer. That's all I can think of. As per my answer above, actually realistic weather would require an impractical number of weather zones.

Anyway, snow is better for an attacking power than rain in some respects [:)]

Cheers, Neilster

[wodin]

I'd have thought things like this could have been tweaked for the PC version.

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I guess it's a hangover from paper WiF. The weather zones had to be fairly simple or it would have been a nightmare to keep track of everything.

It works both ways too. You can get unrealistically good weather in winter.

Cheers, Neilster

[Neilster]

Then you open a Pandora's box of deviation from World in Flames. Steve has been careful to make very limited changes from WiF. He has a contract to fulfil and it was to convert WiF, not create a derivative of it.

There will be plenty of abstractions, unrealistic things and simplifications along the way but overall the system works.

Cheers, Neilster

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I'd have thought things like this could have been tweaked for the PC version.

I think things like that will happen, some day. A computer version of the game could potentially bring in improvements to any rule system via using the power of computer technology. But to get to that point, we have to start with what we have, i.e. buying an adaptation of WiF 7 first.

I would caution against using modern weather probabilities for the 1940s. The world was colder then. But this isn't the place to argue about that.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Working through Barbarosa and imagine my surprise when I get snowfall on impluse 5 of the May/June turn [X(]. Did anyone do any kind of actually looking at the weather records for the board game? Moscow, which the game places in the Artic zone for some unknown reason has never had any snowfall in May/June. Yet in my game the white stuff is falling down [:@]

At Murmask I can understand this since in May there is a 27% chance of snowfall, while a much less chance of snow cover http://weatherspark.com/averages/33822/Murmansk-Murmanskaya-oblast-Russian-Federation

But to include large parts of Russia down to Kursk as the same weather as Murmansk is absurd. Is there any way to mod the weather tables? Is there any way to add another weather zone to make this a LOT more accurate?

The last thing I want to do is spend all this time setting up a Global War game, get to '41 and have snow falling where it is plainly impossible for it to ever happen. In the board game you could just re-roll or ignore the effect. The only way I can see to fix this, would be to save the game before every weather die roll which seems a little extreme to avoid something that should not even happen.

Of course why there is even a chance of snow in May/June is beyond my understanding. Storms/rain no problem. Snow no way.

There is a 1 in 10 chance of snow in M/J in the Arctic zone.
I think that no one here can say how were the odds of that occuring in 1941-1945, and I think that the designers of WiF did look at the weather records for the board game, to i mplement those odds.

Also, these 10% odds are not as simple as that, because the weather during the previous impulse can make it a 0% chances.

[Numdydar]

Well according to the chart in the game, there is ALWAYS a 10% chance for snow in the Artic zone in May/June which runs all the way down to Kursk.

Moscow has NEVER gotten ANY snowfall in May/June since records started being kept which was way before 1941. So it does not matter what the weather patterns were during 190-1945 since these areas have never gotten it.

[WIF_Killzone]

Would of liked to have seen your face when you first recognized it was snow, would have also liked to hear the first words that came out of your mouth, probably went something like "Are you ^&%$ing kidding me!"

[:D]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Working through Barbarosa and imagine my surprise when I get snowfall on impluse 5 of the May/June turn [X(]. Did anyone do any kind of actually looking at the weather records for the board game? Moscow, which the game places in the Artic zone for some unknown reason has never had any snowfall in May/June. Yet in my game the white stuff is falling down [:@]

At Murmask I can understand this since in May there is a 27% chance of snowfall, while a much less chance of snow cover http://weatherspark.com/averages/33822/Murmansk-Murmanskaya-oblast-Russian-Federation

But to include large parts of Russia down to Kursk as the same weather as Murmansk is absurd. Is there any way to mod the weather tables? Is there any way to add another weather zone to make this a LOT more accurate?

The last thing I want to do is spend all this time setting up a Global War game, get to '41 and have snow falling where it is plainly impossible for it to ever happen. In the board game you could just re-roll or ignore the effect. The only way I can see to fix this, would be to save the game before every weather die roll which seems a little extreme to avoid something that should not even happen.

Of course why there is even a chance of snow in May/June is beyond my understanding. Storms/rain no problem. Snow no way.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well according to the chart in the game, there is ALWAYS a 10% chance for snow in the Artic zone in May/June which runs all the way down to Kursk.

Moscow has NEVER gotten ANY snowfall in May/June since records started being kept which was way before 1941. So it does not matter what the weather patterns were during 190-1945 since these areas have never gotten it.

There are modifiers to the weather roll that make the "1" result, which brings snow, impossible.

As for your assertion, why not share your sources, and even better forward them to the designer at ADG ?

[WIF_Killzone]

Hey it snowed on September 25th in Moscow, it could therefor snow in early May by my reckoning.

[Numdydar]

How about this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Moscow

or this

Summer (Hot Season)

The summer which typically lasts from May and concludes in October sees surprisingly warm and appealing weather, particularly through the months of June, July and August. From April the cold weather begins to improve as the remaining snow starts to thaw and everything turns to slush. By May the everyday weather has made an exceptionally large incline by means of daytime temperatures are precipitation levels. Daytime temperatures generally rise from an average of 2�C to 15�C from April to the end of May. High temperatures from June to August range anywhere 20�C to 25�C, occasionally rising into the high twenties. It is also common for the city features extreme heat waves anywhere from May to the end of September. The heat waves generally last for one or two weeks as the average temperature sores up beyond 30�C, the air throughout this time tends to be humid and clammy causing an unpleasant atmosphere to its surroundings. The daytime temperature remains pleasing right through September; although by mid-October frosts begin to occur during the night and nearly all precipitation comes in the form of snow.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well according to the chart in the game, there is ALWAYS a 10% chance for snow in the Artic zone in May/June which runs all the way down to Kursk.

Moscow has NEVER gotten ANY snowfall in May/June since records started being kept which was way before 1941. So it does not matter what the weather patterns were during 190-1945 since these areas have never gotten it.

There are modifiers to the weather roll that make the "1" result, which brings snow, impossible.

As for your assertion, why not share your sources, and even better forward them to the designer at ADG ?

If that is true then this is a bug in the program since the table clearly shows a 10% change of snow in the Artic zone for ALL of the May/June period

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well according to the chart in the game, there is ALWAYS a 10% chance for snow in the Artic zone in May/June which runs all the way down to Kursk.

Moscow has NEVER gotten ANY snowfall in May/June since records started being kept which was way before 1941. So it does not matter what the weather patterns were during 190-1945 since these areas have never gotten it.

There are modifiers to the weather roll that make the "1" result, which brings snow, impossible.

As for your assertion, why not share your sources, and even better forward them to the designer at ADG ?

If that is true then this is a bug in the program since the table clearly shows a 10% change of snow in the Artic zone for ALL of the May/June period

What if you read what the stars (*) mean ? [:)]

[brian brian]

The modifiers are used for the _next_ impulse's weather roll. So snow can appear in the Arctic zone in M/J, but not if the previous impulse's weather roll was a 1-3. So it can never happen twice sequentially.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well according to the chart in the game, there is ALWAYS a 10% chance for snow in the Artic zone in May/June which runs all the way down to Kursk.

Moscow has NEVER gotten ANY snowfall in May/June since records started being kept which was way before 1941. So it does not matter what the weather patterns were during 190-1945 since these areas have never gotten it.

There are modifiers to the weather roll that make the "1" result, which brings snow, impossible.

As for your assertion, why not share your sources, and even better forward them to the designer at ADG ?

If that is true then this is a bug in the program since the table clearly shows a 10% change of snow in the Artic zone for ALL of the May/June period

The asterisks indicate what should be added to the next die roll for weather. So if the last weather roll in March/April was a 1, then the two asterisks mean that rolling a 1 in the beginning of May/June will become a 3. That is what Patrice was saying: depending on what the previous weather roll was, it might not be possible to get Snow in the Arctic in May/June.

The weather table is tricky and not all that easy to get use to. That is one reason why we created the Weather Report form, to show the probabilities for the next weather roll. That takes into account the current weather roll.

As for snow in Moscow, or any where else, the weather zone lines had to be drawn somewhere. What hexes to include/exclude is never easy. The same is true for national boundaries (e.g., Luxembourg isn't shown on the map).

The weather for Moscow is also going to be the weather for Archangel and Murmansk, and a whole lot of hexes (duh). So when the weather probabilities were created, the designers needed to consider ALL the hexes in the Arctic zone. I don't envy their task.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

How about this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Moscow

or this

Summer (Hot Season)

The summer which typically lasts from May and concludes in October sees surprisingly warm and appealing weather, particularly through the months of June, July and August. From April the cold weather begins to improve as the remaining snow starts to thaw and everything turns to slush. By May the everyday weather has made an exceptionally large incline by means of daytime temperatures are precipitation levels. Daytime temperatures generally rise from an average of 2�C to 15�C from April to the end of May. High temperatures from June to August range anywhere 20�C to 25�C, occasionally rising into the high twenties. It is also common for the city features extreme heat waves anywhere from May to the end of September. The heat waves generally last for one or two weeks as the average temperature sores up beyond 30�C, the air throughout this time tends to be humid and clammy causing an unpleasant atmosphere to its surroundings. The daytime temperature remains pleasing right through September; although by mid-October frosts begin to occur during the night and nearly all precipitation comes in the form of snow.

This wikipedia article seems mostly based on recent measurements.
Moreover the May figures in the charts clearly show negative records at -7°C, where snow could exist. The type of precipitation tables below don't say what timeframe they are calculated from, so you can't say there can never be something like snow in Moscow area in May in the 40s.
The article even mentions "The last wet snow precipitation may be in the beginning of May".

Don't forget that WiF is about possibilities, not about being framed in what really happenned. WiF is a strategical scaled game, with a number of weather zones defined. You can argue that Moscow should not be in the same Arctic weather area than Murmansk, and you could be right. In old versions of WiF, they weren't. The designers made it that way in the Final Editions for reasons that belong to them, maybe because the northern arctic weather zone was not that useful and it simplified the game to drop it.

[Numdydar]

I have no issue with the weather zones and where they are as I understand they did have to be drawn somewhere. The issue is that there is ANY chance for snow in May, regardless of previous die rolls. For impluses 1-4 weather was Fine, no idea of what the die rolls were. So it goes from fine spring weather to Snow [X(].

Again in the board game, this can easily be dealt with. But in a computer game like this there is no way to change it after the fact other than saving the game before the weather die rool and then reloading.

I did find out that Steve is more awesome than I imagined [:D]. Every phase there is an autosave [:)]. So I just reloaded the autosave at the end of the Russian impluse and now the weather is springtime once again [:)]

Just just to let everyone know, if this happens to you, just reload the autosave at the end of the last impluse and the weather will be redermined.

[paulderynck]

Of course you could be real unlucky and have to reload three times once in a thousand times.

Or use the interface to turn on the ability to control die rolls. Just think - you'll never lose a combat again!