2.3 - I like what I see

[Hard Sarge]

Hi Grotius
roger, I am wondering if I got a bad download or something ?

I watched one of the smaller fights, and seen 9 Zero's go up vs a pack of US fighters, and was smiling like a fool when I watched a p-40 group pick off 7 Zero's in a row, zero destroyed, on screen, zero would turn red, and then the count would drop by one, then right at the end, a p-39 got another one, and I was like yea baby, 8 out of 9, now I can live with that

battle ends, report says 2 Zeros killed ? heck I seen on the screen it telling me destroyed ?, end of turn, the JP lost 2 zero's

so any more, I am not sure if the reports are wrong, if thre planes are being shot down but not dieing

but have seen lots of strange attacks

hitting shortland, got Munda and La Vella, Russell and Lunga, so can put up some nice numbers over the field, 50 + allied fighters and 9 Zeros, first comment, is Zeros climbing to attack bombers, zero bounces bomber

on my side, my fighters will only fight the zero and seems like the zero is always attacking and they are not, when they on the defence, they bypass the fighters and go right into the bombers, which, they don't do much

I did a H2H test of Scen 14, put all the Allied fighters in the area into PM and just attacked PM, shut PM down in 12 days (not counting a number of cloud days where no attack came over) so would say in 8 days of attacks, I shut down PM with Betties and Nells and didn't take major damage(in 12 days, I lost more to OP then to Flak or air to air, and didn't start losing planes to OP until around the 5th day)

so don't know if my game is screwed up, if my computer/OS is screwing up the patch (like some of us had before) not getting much feed back on if others are seeing what I am seeing, but also not getting feed back they they are getting any kind of numbers vs what I am seeing

I can see the P-39 losing more then they kill, the p-40 should be a back and forth, some days good, some days bad, the Cat should hold its own and the 38 should start turning the tide

well I am losing 10 Cats for every 3 Zeros they knock down (lol and that is adding in the odd Betty or Val they can catch) the 38 is a little better then 1 to 1, don't even want to try and figured out the 39, but the odd one is the P-40, it is only around 1 for 2

if it wasn't for the OP losses I would be in trouble in my game, that and the fact the AI likes to hoard all of it's bombers up in Truk and won't commit them to battle

HARD_Sarge

[Erik Rutins]

Sarge,

Are you playing with Fog of War off? It's necessary to do so if you want to get accurate test results. The best way to do it is head to head, fog of war off - you control both sides and can make sure the testing is controlled.

Regards,

- Erik

[Hard Sarge]

Hi Erik
thanks for replieing

well normally have FOW on, but I can always try a new game to see if that makes any difference

I mean the AI is losing Zeros and loseing lots and lots of them, but the combat numbers in the data/info screen, is showing small combat losses and large OP losses

well it is into Dec of 43 now, scen 14, starts in Aug

so numbers are changeing, which as of now it is 462 lost to combat, 200 on the deck (CV's sinking) 212 to Flak and 301 to OP

(which end of first month it was around 70 to combat, 133 to sinking and 170 to OP)

I was getting a lot of 84 Zero and 6 Betty attacks, at one time, I just pulled my fighters out, 6 Betties were not going to do anything, and 4 Cat Squadrons would not put up enough fighters to fight the Zeros

in fact, most of the battles I watched, I tend to close the air to air and watch the scrolling messages to see how each pilot is doing, and then watch the bombing attacks, the Vals or Betties were always untouched. every once in a while you get the raid were the fighters forgot to show up, but after the first pass, the bombers break off action, so you end up with maybe 1 kill or 1 damaged and the rest running for home

I go start up a new game now and see if FOW makes it look right

HARD_Sarge

[Hard Sarge]

Hi Erik
LOL this is strange ?

watching the fight, the first air to air, I counted the screen showing 25 P-39's as destroyed, but end report only showed 6 ?

you know the area where it tells what is going on in the fight, climbing, diving, getting on the tail, then p-39 damaged,or p-39 killed, it goes red, I counted that 25 times in the first fight

but will say, I am getting to the bombers now, last time I started the game, I couldn't get to the bombers (of course, it is early, only 24 Zeros last raid, which so far after 2 raids I am in the lead !!!!!, 17 kills to 16 losses, last time it was like 5 to 40

hate to say it, but remember one of the other patches didn't work right the first game I tired it, had to restart another game before it started to work right (which this was a new start)

I'll run about 10 more turns, and see if it sitcks or not

but it is nice seeing it attack the bombers, last game it never got close to them

HARD_Sarge

[Mr.Frag]

If pilot claims were taken at face value, every plane ever built would have been shot down 10 times. The reason gun cameras were installed on aircraft was to try and get some form of factual data out of these claims. Using what pilots claim as hard intel is very dangerous. Always take it with a grain of salt.

I'm curious about turning FoW off to play. It seems to cause VERY dramatic changes in how things happen due to the game knowing way too much about everything. Does this not apply in a head to head game? The standard example of FoW off is the Bettys & Nells flying down to Townsville to poach a convoy that would never have been spotted in the first place

[Hard Sarge]

Hi Erik
I don't understand what is going on
if I watch the air to air battle, I show one side or the other getting toar apart, but the end results are not close to what I had just watched, but turn out about even, say 4 Zeros for 5 P-39s

but if I click off the battle and watch it scroll, I get clobbered, 1 zero for 9 or 10 p-39s

this battle

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/12/42

Weather: Clear

Air attack on TF, near Lunga at 38,40

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 19
G4M1 Betty x 3

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 6
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6
P-400 Airacobra x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 destroyed
P-400 Airacobra x 5 destroyed
P-400 Airacobra x 1 damaged

ENS C. Isozaki of F1/Tainan Daitai is credited with kill number 3


from watching the battle fight out, every P-400 was shot down, every F4F4 was shot down or damaged, but the F4F3's were not touched, the F3's attacked the bombers, got the first kill and the bombers broke off and ran home

I think I am going to uninstall the game and redownload the patch, if others were seeing what I am seeing they would be screaming, but since they are not, it must be my game

LOL nasty move when you land at Lunga, just move up to shortland and pick off all the transport in the area, I picked off about 20 of them waiting to see if the Cats would fight

HARD_Depressed_Sarge

[Hard Sarge]

Hi Mr Frag
yea bud, but we talking about a game, with numbers and reports, now it is one thing for VMF-223 to claim 50 kills today, but does the system give them 50 kills to there total or does it give it 5

I have played into Dec and my best unit has 40 + kills, the 2nd best is in the 20's

one of my CV Cats is still under 10 kills, it was on close to a 3 month trip and got less then 10 kills ? as I posted, one of the IJN pilots got 9 kills in one mission, more then a squadron during 3 months of fighting

I got squadrons that have been in the war for 1 to 2 months that do not even have a kill yet, and have been in a number of fights

the first unit to change over to 38's was in the middle of all the fights for PM, it had 3 kills

it is not what the pilot is saying or claiming, it is what is being shot down, by how ever the system figures combat out

HARD_Sarge

[crsutton]

Well, I like the changes. I think that it pretty much makes scen 19 as the Americans too difficult against a competent players as the only real tool the Americans had (in the early goings) was their killer subs. However, scen 17 should be lots of fun and will be the most balanced. Subs will be less dominant. I am not worried about killer zeros as pilot skill degrades pretty fast and that is the key to American victory. In scen 17, even moderate Japanese plane losses are hard to take. The Americans can lose planes.

Historically, air to air combat losses were very light. Due to the long flight range for Japanese planes and poor forward facilties for all combatants-operational losses far exceeded combat losses. The problem for Japan is that operational losses frequently meant the loss of pilots and aircrews as well. Of course, in game terms, if the Japanese own Lunga and Morsby, their operations losses should be less as it is the Allies that would have to fly over water to attack.

All in all, they have done a great job fixing things.

[medicinman]

I read this post and see the two views (does it help the Japan or Allied player) and know what side each one plays to say this change in 2.3 is better or worse. I have been playing the allied side restart with 2.3 and the P-40 with almost no fatigue do not touch the zeros and barely get through to the bombers. A very MAJOR change compared to 2.2 results and strategy.

This "Air combat with big groups of planes, particularly those with high fatigue led to bloodbaths (40-60% losses per side) in version 2.20. An attempt has been made to tone this down, without impacting smaller air battles too much" doesn't seem like a large battle tone down not affecting smaller air battles.

I was hoping for a little bit of less air combat damage not a complete overhaul. Even when the P-40's go up even on the barely lose any and are lucky to pickoff 1 zero and/or 1 bomber. Should just sit them at home for that.

I do like some of the other changes regarding the realism correcting level bombers vs ships and subs, CV replacements etc.

I have noticed when watching a FOW air to air battle when the attacker fires at range then defender goes red is usually a kill, when the defender continues with red and red and red without a RANGE number those appear to not count in air loses daily report (I key).

[ADavidB]

I've been following the posts here, and all the while I've been playing a number of scenarios, including 16, 17 and 19. I haven't noticed the Allied fighters getting knocked off in May/June 42 any more than I remember in earlier versions of the game. And the fighters continue to catch Japanese bombers, despite the presence of large numbers of Japanese escort fighters in some cases.

Of course, I'm fanatical about rotating my fighters in and out of PM, keep plenty of supply there, bomb the c*r*a*p out of nearby bases to make the Japanese player fly in from Raboul, and do plenty of diversionary tactics to keep the Japanese from focusing all their assets on PM.

And there is nothing like threatening to the East with carriers to keep the Japanese carriers from spending too much time around PM.

Plus, I've really learned to love the new "in passage" ability of my subs to hit TFs - put six or more subs in the various hexes at the east end of NG and you can find out a lot more about TF movements than you can from air recon alone.

So all-in-all, I'm really pleased with v2.30

Dave Baranyi

[Drongo]

Posted by Medicinman

I have noticed when watching a FOW air to air battle when the attacker fires at range then defender goes red is usually a kill, when the defender continues with red and red and red without a RANGE number those appear to not count in air loses daily report (I key).

I would agree with your assesment. After doing beta testing on the air combat, I found that an air to air attack message followed by multiple red kills (without a pause) represents only one kill (or very rarely, just a damaged a/c). Don't know what causes it, maybe the pilot forgot to take his thumb off the button.


Posted by Hard Sarge

I think I am going to uninstall the game and redownload the patch, if others were seeing what I am seeing they would be screaming, but since they are not, it must be my game

Mate,

Go ahead if you need to be sure but I can confirm I've seen the same type of results as you are seeing, during my various 2.30 air battles (but it does vary).

Depending on the circumstances, the A6Ms can reek havoc with early allied land based fighters. The F4Fs can get ripped up as well but overall, they'll tend to come out only slightly inferior, thanks to their better quality pilots. As you said, the P-38s will do better than the Jap fighters, but not much better unless the pilots are at least good (70+).

Be aware that there is more emphasis on pilot quality difference in 2.30 combat results. The allies are a pretty bland mob at the start. My rule of thumb with the UV air results is that everything will balance out in time, even if you feel the P-40 was never historically outfought to the extent your seeing.

Re : Air Combat Display - In terms of watching the combat display, when you see an a/c "hit", it can be relied upon to mean just that. What you can't rely on is whether the aircraft was actually destroyed, despite what is shown on the screen. A hit of any type on an enemy aircraft will simply mean that you have inflicted damage.

Re : AAR's - this is more accurate than the combat display in determining a/c destroyed (although not 100%) but be wary of the damaged totals as they represent the total hits on aircraft, not total aircraft hit and damaged (ie If an a/c is hit 3 times, it will show as 3 damaged a/c).

Re : Squadron kill figures - These are 100% accurate and will include not only those aircraft shot down in combat but also those crashing on the return flight (but only if they were damaged by the squadron) or being shot down by Flak after being damaged during the air combat. The squadron kill figures means how many aircraft that the squadron "hit" that then failed to return to base. Pilot kill scores are based on the same method.

The figures shown in the aircraft losses table of the Intelligence Display Screen are also 100% accurate.

Hope this info helps.

Cheers

[Hard Sarge]

Hi David B
well in my game I was talking about (uninstalled the whole thing, so don't have it anymore)

all the JP fighters were coming from Rebaul (which was the other hassle, every raid was 84+ Zeros and 3 to 15 Bombers)

which I think what I was seeing was more Morale based, but the hassle is, for what ever reason, my Cats never picked there morale back up, pull them from the battle and let them sit for a week and morale only would get back to 50%, fly them back and Fat is already 20-30+ next day put them on Cap and there Morale is shot, noticed that the P-40's didn't do that, they seemed to stay high, the 39's, well, if they got kills it stayed up, if they didn't it was in the 50's

but I still can't see a well rested Cat group of 4 Squadrons jumping 30 Zeros, and loseing 10-15 planes to 1 Zero (FOW off)

maybe in my game, the Cats were not getting the kills they needed to keep there morale up, and with out the morale, they wern't getting the kills

Hi Mman
yea I was seeing that too, one part that was strange though, you would, 5 or 6 planes go red in a row, or destoryed just flash on the screen over and over again, I also don't count that now, but most times it happens, one pilot gets a lot of kills that mission ?

I have been watching the air battles more now, and looks like a lot of times, the whole fighter group was breaking off, which stinks when one plane is damaged and 24 planes break off, worst one was when 16 planes bounced a undefend Nell group, first plane in was damaged, so the whole pack broke off and went home, while the Nells finished there bomb run

Hi Drongo
LOL now you reply

still think my game was screwed up, the AI will attack me now, in the game I was talking about, it would not (I could sit out side the port, with a 3 CV TF and just pick off ships as they left port and the AI would do nothing, and it had (recon ?) 140 some fighters and at least 80 bombers there, I was only getting some 45-50 fighters up on Cap)

even if you feel the P-40 was never historically outfought to the extent your seeing. ?
don't have a hassle with the P-40's, my Cats are getting slaughtered, the P-40 was all but holding it's own, in fact, had to move all of them from PM over to Lunga to give the Cats a break, and they ended up breaking the Attack on Lunga, and like I said, they were a good day, bad day, type of deal (still, in the first two months, I never had a battle that I shot down more then 2 Zeros, the 3rd month I nailed 3 once, in the 4th, I had a big day and nailed 5 (rooks ?, replacements?)

towards the end, I even started t

o pull my fighters off of the bases, the AI only had 6 bombers in the area, it was losing as many Zeros if I fought him as if I didn't

reinstalled the game and went to a different Scen, 13 instead of 14 (later war, the map looked interesting)
and I am still seeing some of the same thing, only it is with the 38 now, the 39 will get hammered and then return the favor, a real bomber buster, so end of day, tend to lose 10-15 of them, but they do damage back, the 38 gets attacked and they break off, the F4u is Hog Heaven (still, Morale looks to be the key, got 1 killer unit, and they got high Morale and kills, the other 3, are in the 50% for morale and have to be shut down for rest, and have low kills totals, so think they fed off of each other, to stick in battle and get kills, you need morale, to get morale and stay on Cap/excourt, you need kills)

HARD_Sarge

[Yamamoto]

Originally posted by Drongo
The figures shown in the aircraft losses table of the Intelligence Display Screen are also 100% accurate.

Yes and I really wish they would change that. What's the point of Fog of War if you can just flip over to another screen and get 100% accurate results. Why not give 100% accurate results for ships too? It should be a lot easier to tell when a ship sinks than when a plane is destroyed flying home after a battle.

Yamamoto

[Hard Sarge]

Well, I could see, removing being able to tell what the lost planes were, until the end of the game (for the bad guys)

I mean, I don't think I have ever changed my plans based on seeing that 10 planes were shot down yesterday

see it now, oh man, shot down 10 planes, dumb pilots, thought I had nailed 12 of them, well, that is it, call the Adm, and tell him to turn around and get back into port, until I know them 2 planes are down, I not going anywhere out on the open seas

can kind of see where planes lost when a ship goes down, should be counted as OP or Combat losses, but in the long run, you still got to guess

oh boy, big battle today, really hammered them Kates before they knew I was there, I just know I hurt that CV and Cvl, hehe and that CS sure got snookered when it tried to leave Rebaul, hmmmm, 17 planes were destroyed on the ground, hmmm, was the CV or the Cvl going down ?, yuck, sure hope I see that CS still floating, hate to be chasing a sunk ship, when it not sunk yet !

oh well, I think we still need it, but maybe put it back on another screen, in case other people don't want to see it when they open up the info page

HARD_Sarge