Why I find 'The Tiger and the Dragon' frustrating

[Russian Heel]

Let me preface this post by saying I love this game, I'm going to continue playing it and I am not a negaive nancy complainer. I was told to make myself useful, so, here goes:

Starting situation for India:



What we know as the player is this is a spy trawler 5.39 NM away:



10 seconds into the scenario an Chinese ship is observed attacking one of my units and immediately I have responded with missiles away, it hasn't even taken a second:



2 seconds later, more units observed attacking and are themselves attacked instantly:



5 seconds later, 7 seconds after the initial launches my submarines launch missiles and simultaneously at that those skippers have great SA and impressively can utilize volley fire:



Remember that spy trawler? For the purpose of this exercise lets see through the fog of war and sink it. I will allocate 1 Kh-35 from the Delhi from my carrier group for a manual attack, should be enough I think:



So that of course takes care of marking the trawler hostile, lets take a look at how the single missile I allocated is doing, wait what's this? 4 ships fired a missile from that group?



But it says there are six inbound, where are the other 2 from?

Oh:



This is 19 seconds into the scenario. I could turn off the AI attacks, but then I will really have to micromanage and manually target every single vampire, just to stop a free for all as soon as a hostile trawler is marked 'hostile' and 1 missile is allocated to engage it. One of the selling points to this game is :

LEAD, DON’T MICROMANAGE

I feel that if you don't micromanage in this scenario you are going to waste a lot of SSMs that you need to kill warships not trawlers. I don't think if something is marked hostile it should suddenly be a free for all by all ships in range including submarines.

I have attached a save, but it is easy to replicate it is the same every time. Personally I think the forces start too close together.

[JCR]

I agree, this scenario would be much cooler if both sides had at least double the distance to each other. Maybe even triple
There's more than enough sea room available for that.

[MR_BURNS2]

It looks as if all of them are on a ASuW mission, they wouldnt fire SSMs otherwise. Delete the mission or unassign them. The scenario designer might have forgotten do check "scrub mission if player human", altough i have a suspicion that one of the latest builds reset that option for older missions.

[Dobey455]

In the "Contact Report" is the trawler identified or is the type "unknown"?

See, the problem is that YOU marked the trawler hostile knowing that it was a minor contact, but unless it has been identified by your forces then all the AI knows is that it is some sort of hostile surface contact.

As far as your forces are concerned it could just as easily be an AEGIS cruiser.

Try sending an A/C or helo to get a visual on it before engaging and see if the same still happens.
If your ships still launch a massive volley at a positively identified trawler, then you are correct that there is an issue.

EDIT: Looking at the screen shots I can see that when you engaged the target was designated "Skunk".
That means your forces don't know what the contact is, so I'm confident that is the problem.

[Russian Heel]

ORIGINAL: Dobey

In the "Contact Report" is the trawler identified or is the type "unknown"?

See, the problem is that YOU marked the trawler hostile knowing that it was a minor contact, but unless it has been identified by your forces then all the AI knows is that it is some sort of hostile surface contact.

As far as your forces are concerned it could just as easily be an AEGIS cruiser.

Try sending an A/C or helo to get a visual on it before engaging and see if the same still happens.
If your ships still launch a massive volley at a positively identified trawler, then you are correct that there is an issue.

EDIT: Looking at the screen shots I can see that when you engaged the target was designated "Skunk".
That means your forces don't know what the contact is, so I'm confident that is the problem.

I'm not a sailor, I was a tanker. Lets strictly look at the Carrier Group. I, the commander, ordered one ship to fire one missile. If the company commander told a platoon leader to expend one round sabot at a target the whole platoon doesn't fire a volley. And for that matter, if there is a hostile target marked on the FBCB2 - everybody in range doesn't immediately engage it with no fire controls or coordination. Like I said, I'm a tanker, not a sailor so my mindset might be wrong. I understand its computer logic, but if I, the commander, say one ship from this group shoot one missile, one ship from that group should shoot one missile. But that is just my point of view.

[Dobey455]

Except that if you do not turn "Auto fire" off, then you ALSO are ordering each commander to exercise his own initiative.

[Russian Heel]

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Except that if you do not turn "Auto fire" off, then you ALSO are ordering each commander to exercise his own initiative.

Yes, which means now I must also individually target and order each commander to fire on each incoming vampire, right? Is there a way to have each commander exercise initiative to defend his ship and the group but not act like Rambo and explicitly violate my orders when I say Hey! Specific Ship in this group fire 1 missile at this target. They are my subordinates, I want them to act on their own initiative, but my orders should override their imitative. Granted in reality I don't think a commander at that level is allocating ammunition and targets to specific ships, those matters should be handled by the lower levels of command, but if the highest level of command does say how to engage a target, his subordinates damn sure better listen.

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: Russian Heel

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Except that if you do not turn "Auto fire" off, then you ALSO are ordering each commander to exercise his own initiative.

Yes, which means now I must also individually target and order each commander to fire on each incoming vampire, right? Is there a way to have each commander exercise initiative to defend his ship and the group but not act like Rambo and explicitly violate my orders when I say Hey! Specific Ship in this group fire 1 missile at this target.

IIRC setting "Auto Fire OFF" does not prevent your units from defending themselves against missile attacks.

[Russian Heel]

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

ORIGINAL: Russian Heel

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Except that if you do not turn "Auto fire" off, then you ALSO are ordering each commander to exercise his own initiative.

Yes, which means now I must also individually target and order each commander to fire on each incoming vampire, right? Is there a way to have each commander exercise initiative to defend his ship and the group but not act like Rambo and explicitly violate my orders when I say Hey! Specific Ship in this group fire 1 missile at this target.

IIRC setting "Auto Fire OFF" does not prevent your units from defending themselves against missile attacks.

If that is indeed the case I can deal with it.

[Russian Heel]

I just ran the scenario. I tuned all my groups to No AI attacks, hit start and let it run. All of the Indian ships were sunk without a single weapon being fired at the incoming vampires. I then ran it again this time not touching the AI Fire settings. The ships defended themselves against the incoming fire and fired offensively. So it unless I am making an operator error, which is very possible, it seems if I want control over my offensive engagements I also have to micromanage against every single vampire. In a small sized scenario its not so bad, in a medium to large scenario it is too much for me to handle.

Edit: Let me put emphasis on the ships (well my carrier) did fire chaff, just nobody fired any SAMs or guns at the missiles.

[thewood1]

I leave AI on for firing, but use shift F1 a lot to manage engagements. In larger scenarios, I find this a very manageable approach.

I see one problem with several people is that they are jumping into huge scenarios and not really understanding naval warfare or Command operations. They then get overwhelmed and think something is completely broken. In large scenarios, you have to set priorities on what you are going to focus on and then shift priorites often as needed. You also become a master at changing time compression back and forth.

Doesn't mean everything in command works perfectly, but it manageable with some experience and good trainning.

[ExMachina]

Yes, which means now I must also individually target and order each commander to fire on each incoming vampire, right? Is there a way to have each commander exercise initiative to defend his ship and the group but not act like Rambo and explicitly violate my orders when I say Hey! Specific Ship in this group fire 1 missile at this target.

IIRC setting "Auto Fire OFF" does not prevent your units from defending themselves against missile attacks.

No. Ships with Auto Firing turned "off" will not fire at incoming vampires (which is exactly how it should be at the moment considering how the AI allocates weapons).

I also do not think most (any?) close-in guns will fire at inbound vampires with the Auto Fire off.

[ExMachina]

It looks as if all of them are on a ASuW mission, they wouldnt fire SSMs otherwise.

EDIT: ok, Just confirmed that that's the case.

[Russian Heel]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I leave AI on for firing, but use shift F1 a lot to manage engagements. In larger scenarios, I find this a very manageable approach.

I see one problem with several people is that they are jumping into huge scenarios and not really understanding naval warfare or Command operations. They then get overwhelmed and think something is completely broken. In large scenarios, you have to set priorities on what you are going to focus on and then shift priorites often as needed. You also become a master at changing time compression back and forth.

Doesn't mean everything in command works perfectly, but it manageable with some experience and good trainning.

Again, I am a cav trooper - my only naval warfare knowledge comes from miniatures, so I am I to understand if a contact is declared hostile, with in less than a second, every ship in range will fire missiles regardless of any orders or individual fire-plan? Simply because 'it might be an AEGIS Cruiser' despite my briefing telling me it is a spy trawler? My briefing told me for three days a spy trawler has been closely following my carrier group. The human factor, me, has deduced that this is the contact we have IDed earlier. I made the call it was the spy trawler. I ordered 1 missile fired at it. This marked it hostile automatically making every ship in range fire a missile at it simultaneously. I'm not being an ass, is this really how naval warfare works? It seems as a bit of mismanagement of class V. Based on intel (my briefing) flat out telling me what it was I made the call to shoot 1 missile at it. If it was a Chinese AEGIS cruiser - that's on me, the commander.

I play 1:1 time when in contact, I'm not complaining about anything completely broken, I'm just trying to find the best way to keep as much as my offensive punch as I can without having to micromanage the defense of my ships as well. The only thing I have come up with is to turn on hold fire on ships in range, blast the trawler with manual fire, turn AI fire back on for defense allocate the missiles for the forward group fire, then turn auto fire back on for defense and re-engagement. Its a lot of micromanaging but certainly doable.

I don't think anything is super broken, nobody is a bad guy, I'm not full of anger, my name isn't Herman. I was just venting a little and sharing my frustration wit a specific scenario that is interesting to me.

[JCR]

How is the forum policy on modding existing scenarios and republishing them?
Verboten, permission or free for all?
I feel tempted to try and modify this one to drastically increase the range between the two combatants, putting the focus on initial detection and first strike instead of vampire micromanaging.

[thewood1]

Again, I have yet to see this auto fire ripple on its own. If I hit F1 and select a target, I do see it. That is why I almost always use Shift F1 to layout who I want to fire. I rationalize this as that is what a task force commander would do. He would make sure all his ships fire at the right targets. That is a learning thing. Now would a fleet commander do that...most likely not. He would expect his task force commanders to do it. But you have to make some concessions to the AI's ability.

[Russian Heel]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Again, I have yet to see this auto fire ripple on its own. If I hit F1 and select a target, I do see it. That is why I almost always use Shift F1 to layout who I want to fire. I rationalize this as that is what a task force commander would do. He would make sure all his ships fire at the right targets. That is a learning thing. Now would a fleet commander do that...most likely not. He would expect his task force commanders to do it. But you have to make some concessions to the AI's ability.

Did you see my screenshot? I did hit Shift F1 and manually allocated 1 missile from 1 ship. I never only hit F1.

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: JCR

How is the forum policy on modding existing scenarios and republishing them?
Verboten, permission or free for all?
I feel tempted to try and modify this one to drastically increase the range between the two combatants, putting the focus on initial detection and first strike instead of vampire micromanaging.

Sure go ahead.

[Russian Heel]

ORIGINAL: JCR

How is the forum policy on modding existing scenarios and republishing them?
Verboten, permission or free for all?
I feel tempted to try and modify this one to drastically increase the range between the two combatants, putting the focus on initial detection and first strike instead of vampire micromanaging.

Would love to play that, the scenario is perfectly balanced in forces I think, nothing needs adjusted except for the distance, and therefore maybe the scenario length. As it stands now there is no way to develop the situation its just boom 2 seconds into the game the Chinese are warning you, 10 seconds into the game everybody has missiles in the air. I've never played as the Chinese so, not sure, but I think they have the initial initiative to start the shooting.

[mikmykWS]

Okay

Try unassigning the Indian task forces from the ASUW mission. Giving the timing it may be queueing up the attacked while you are allocating thus the firing.

That being said we know the AI overallocates surface fires. This is mostly because its better to err on the side of too much than too little. So if the target is known we can code for that but what happens if the target is an unknown and you must fire? Do you evaluate against target size? Find a known doctorine, if so where? Any ideas on how to evaluate for this?

M