Garrison Value

[warspite1]

Can someone assist please? I am trying to reconcile the Garrisons for the Germans and Russians. I think I can reconcile the Germans - but am struggling with the USSR

Situation: 1940

Germany has conquered Poland and aligned Finland
USSR has claimed Eastern Poland, The Baltic States and The Finnish Borderlands

I therefore make it that the units in the following areas count toward the garrison:

- Finland
- Finnish Borderlands
- Baltic States (Lithuania only)
- Eastern Poland
- Poland (inc Polish Corridor)
- East Prussia

If that is right the Germans have:
1 HQ x 2 points = 2
2 Mech/SS x 2 = 4
4 Divisions x 0.5= 2
2 aircraft x 1 = 2
11 other units x 1 = 11
Total 21 as per the Garrison in the box (see below)

However, the Soviets have a garrison of:
1 Arm/Mech x 2 = 2
2 Aircraft x 1 = 2
3 Other x 1 = 3
Total 7 - but the form says 8.5

Have I missed something obvious?

[warspite1]

The units in Lithuania are a Mech and an aircraft. There is a cavalry corps and an infantry HQ in Eastern Poland in addition to the aircraft. There is just an infantry corps in the Finnish Borderlands.

[brian brian]

not all of the area can be seen in that screen-shot ... only units within 3 hexes of the border count ...

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

not all of the area can be seen in that screen-shot ... only units within 3 hexes of the border count ...

warspite1

That makes things worse - the Germans are not now reconcilled...

Re the Russians, the units in the territories mentioned above are contained in that screenshot. However, do units in the Soviet Union itself count (within three hexes)? The doubt comes because of Karelia.

[warspite1]

Wrong thread!

[Orm]

Edit: Apparently wrong thread. [:)]

[Orm]

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

not all of the area can be seen in that screen-shot ... only units within 3 hexes of the border count ...
warspite1

That makes things worse - the Germans are not now reconcilled...

Re the Russians, the units in the territories mentioned above are contained in that screenshot. However, do units in the Soviet Union itself count (within three hexes)? The doubt comes because of Karelia.

Yes. They do count in Karelia once Finland is aligned to Germany.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

not all of the area can be seen in that screen-shot ... only units within 3 hexes of the border count ...
warspite1

That makes things worse - the Germans are not now reconcilled...

Re the Russians, the units in the territories mentioned above are contained in that screenshot. However, do units in the Soviet Union itself count (within three hexes)? The doubt comes because of Karelia.

Yes. They do count in Karelia once Finland is aligned to Germany.

warspite1

No Orm I mean do units in the Soviet Union count toward the garrison test? If you count Karelia as a separate territory then there is no border between the USSR and Poland / Finland.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

not all of the area can be seen in that screen-shot ... only units within 3 hexes of the border count ...
warspite1

That makes things worse - the Germans are not now reconcilled...

Re the Russians, the units in the territories mentioned above are contained in that screenshot. However, do units in the Soviet Union itself count (within three hexes)? The doubt comes because of Karelia.

Yes. They do count in Karelia once Finland is aligned to Germany.

warspite1

No Orm I mean do units in the Soviet Union count toward the garrison test? If you count Karelia as a separate territory then there is no border between the USSR and Poland / Finland.

I think that I will quote the relevant rule here since the concept of common border seem to cause some confusion.


Cut from 9.5 Neutrality pacts:
....
Your common border with another major power consists of every hex you (or your aligned minor countries)
control within 3 hexes and/or hexdots of a hex controlled by the other major power (or its aligned minor countries).

So units in Soviet Union do count.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm


Yes. They do count in Karelia once Finland is aligned to Germany.

warspite1

No Orm I mean do units in the Soviet Union count toward the garrison test? If you count Karelia as a separate territory then there is no border between the USSR and Poland / Finland.

I think that I will quote the relevant rule here since the concept of common border seem to cause some confusion.


Cut from 9.5 Neutrality pacts:
....
Your common border with another major power consists of every hex you (or your aligned minor countries)
control within 3 hexes and/or hexdots of a hex controlled by the other major power (or its aligned minor countries).

So units in Soviet Union do count.

warspite1

Okay thanks as always. I will re-check the nos.

[brian brian]

none of the Russian units in or adjacent to Minsk count, for example. you use current borders, not original borders or neutral borders.

I hate to ever add things to a list of things to do for this game, but the Soviet-controlled hex of Poland adjacent to both East Prussia and Lithuania comes off fairly poorly on this map. (it does on the paper map as well). I think MWiF displays the borders of areas ceded to Russia dynamically; i.e. such borders only appear if the Russians actually seize such areas? (might not happen in all games?) Could the map display these initially as a dashed line, and then a solid line of a different shade of red (Soviet Flag Red-Orange might work nicely) once control changes? I thought I saw it mentioned that this happens. Anyway, probably leave this on the list of things to look into, next year.

or simply turning the hex-control flags on would show you the pact area a bit more clearly. it is convoluted right there in the southern Baltic States. Perhaps on the someday-wish-list, hexes in a neutrality pact area could show with a brighter tint or something.

It is easy to forget that Russian units, near the Rumanian border only - don't count while Rumania is not yet active. I think.

[brian brian]

And I looked at that one hex wrong; a hex I have stared at 1000 times. It is a German hex, though it looks like it is the new Luxembourg or something. Definitely turning on the hex control flags will help tremendously when thinking about Pact areas.

[warspite1]

Yes it is German controlled. I never noticed that hex until you mentioned it - now it will bug me [:(]. But at least I think I have got to the bottom of the Garrison issue!!

Cheers guys [:)]

[warspite1]

Great - so now sorted - no bug and rule clarified. Hussah!

Explanation in my AAR if anyone is interested in the detail (see below)

Next the Neutrality Pact information comes up (see form below). Now, given what has happened in France, I, as the Germans, do not want to declare war on the USSR and do not want then declaring war on me.

To allow a declaration the Garrison value has to fall below 2:1. So let’s see if I can make sense of this form.

Germany
Garrison – 21
Offensive Garrison – 29 (4m)
Defensive Garrison – 42 (0m)
Off Break (?) – No (17)

USSR
Garrison – 8.5
Offensive Garrison – 8.5 (0m)
Defensive Garrison – 23 (2m)
Off Break (?) – No (75.5)

What does this all mean? Why is Germany’s Garrison 21?

Within three hexes of a common border we have the units* in East Prussia, Finland and Poland (inc Polish Corridor)
1 HQ x 2 points = 2
2 Mech/SS x 2 = 4
4 Divisions x 0.5= 2
2 aircraft x 1 = 2
11 other units x 1 = 11
Total = 21
* Note you count the aligned units too (in this case Finland).

Within three hexes of a common border we have the units in Lithuania, Eastern Poland, Finnish Borderlands and the Soviet Union
1 Arm/Mech x 2 = 2
1 Division x 0.5 = 0.5
2 Aircraft x 1 = 2
4 Other x 1 = 4
Total 8.5

So the Garrison numbers tally.

Now let’s work out the ratios for Germany:
1. Work out the Garrison values
Germany = 21 vs USSR = 8.5
2. Add your offensive entry markers
Germany (I have drawn 4 markers totalling 8) = 29
3. Add defensive entry markers to the modified value (Doubled in the calendar year after first made) = 8.5 x 2 = 17
USSR (I have drawn 2 markers totalling 7) = 24

So the Off Break column means that to get to the 2:1 garrison ratio, the Germans require 19 more points:
29+19 = 48 (USSR defence = 24)

Now let’s work out the ratios for USSR:
1. Work out the Garrison values
Germany = 21 vs USSR = 8.5
2. Add your offensive entry markers
USSR (I have drawn 1 marker totalling 2) = 10.5
3. Add defensive entry markers to the modified value (Doubled in the calendar year after first made) = 21 x 2 = 42
Germany (I have drawn 2 markers totalling 2) = 44

So the Off Break column means that to get to the 2:1 garrison ratio, the Soviets require 77.5 more points:
10.5 + 77.5 = 88 (German defence = 44)

[warspite1]

bo - if we can get threads posted above then this one may be helpful too (assuming the grognards agree with my conclusion - and I haven't spouted a load of sloblocks). [:)]