I just bought the game a couple of days ago and are still learning things...
Aside from this designing my own ships is sort of the thing that I like to do in games like this.
My question is what the size of a ship design actually do aside from presenting more targets to the enemy?
I mean, all other considerations a bigger ships is just more effective in all other respect if I understand the game mechanics correctly.
It is not harder to hit a smaller ship or is it because the ship is larger on the map?
Smaller ships have no benefits in speed or turning rates? (Even though smaller ships should be more efficient at this using real physics in space. Less and more compact mass mean less stress in a hull during maneuvering and acceleration.)
Smaller ships should be harder to detect, having a smaller energy output from engines and a smaller EM signal overall.
I can see that using giant ships can be a problem when you can build really large ships but overall it is better with one size 300 ship over two size 150 in almost all instances. If I want more targets for the enemy I can just through on some fighters in my ships.
Am I missing something?
Small ship designs?
RE: Small ship designs?
I don't pretend much expertise but I've started to design very specialist small ships that usually operate with something else.
So one design has a decent shield/armour and boarding pods. I've got these in an otherwise normal fleet (just into the warp age) of all round destroyers. Called my boarding fleet they ... well you can guess. They have almost no weapons so are pretty cheap to build and maintain.
Another I use for deep raiding. So they have close range weapons, some torpedos, almost no defense, but move fast and manouvre well. Very good for economic warfare - obviously toast if something serious catches them.
I'm thinking of another small ship to carry long range scanners - defense and speed and fuel here.
So I have an all round destroyer design that is my mid-game workhorse. I could build cruisers but I'm holding off till I think I need bigger stuff. My 'small' ships are all single role optimised, rather than all-rounders.
Appeals to me, but no idea if this is 'right'. But then I like the role playing aspect of DW.
Edit - should say that as a player you can design any size in any of the notional classes (up to your build limit). So its a conscious decision to build smaller, and that is why I've gone down this road of either armour or weapons plus a particular set of characteristics in planning my designs. So you can go for brute speed - more reactors etc or more mobility - the vectoring element ... and try to think about how you'd like this ship to behave. In my case, the boarders are good at manouver and average for speed, the raiders are speed merchants but a bit sluggish in movement.
So one design has a decent shield/armour and boarding pods. I've got these in an otherwise normal fleet (just into the warp age) of all round destroyers. Called my boarding fleet they ... well you can guess. They have almost no weapons so are pretty cheap to build and maintain.
Another I use for deep raiding. So they have close range weapons, some torpedos, almost no defense, but move fast and manouvre well. Very good for economic warfare - obviously toast if something serious catches them.
I'm thinking of another small ship to carry long range scanners - defense and speed and fuel here.
So I have an all round destroyer design that is my mid-game workhorse. I could build cruisers but I'm holding off till I think I need bigger stuff. My 'small' ships are all single role optimised, rather than all-rounders.
Appeals to me, but no idea if this is 'right'. But then I like the role playing aspect of DW.
Edit - should say that as a player you can design any size in any of the notional classes (up to your build limit). So its a conscious decision to build smaller, and that is why I've gone down this road of either armour or weapons plus a particular set of characteristics in planning my designs. So you can go for brute speed - more reactors etc or more mobility - the vectoring element ... and try to think about how you'd like this ship to behave. In my case, the boarders are good at manouver and average for speed, the raiders are speed merchants but a bit sluggish in movement.
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Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Small ship designs?
Yes... I'm more into the role playing aspect of the whole thing as well. My question was perhaps more of a game mechanic one.
Since I have not gone very far into the game, starting all over several times to learn and understand things I have not experimented with any really large ships yet.
My biggest ships have been 300 in size or there about.
My current designs were an Escort with only beam-weapons at about 2/3 the size of a Frigate or Destroyer. My Frigates and Destroyers were of the same size but very different in role. The Frigate has been a quick response ship that mostly relied on speed and firepower and medium defenses. The destroyer was similar to the frigate but less speed and more firepower and defenses. The frigate and destroyer were simply as big as I could make them, no reason not to the way I saw it. So between 200-300 in my case.
Going forward I was thinking of making Frigates and Destroyers in sizes of 300-500, Escort in sizes of 200-300 and the rest as big as I can make them. Capital ships are just that, huge battleships that basically should act as the backbone of any fleet with all the stuff I need for offensive action. Destroyers will be the escort for capital ships while Escort ships are escort for the fleet as a whole or act as very fast fire-brigade squadrons in conjunction with Frigates as defense forces. I could see a strong offensive fleet be something like 2 battleships, 2 carrier and 3-5 destroyers per battleship/carrier and one Escort ship for every ship in the fleet. A smaller fleet would be 1 Battleship/Carrier, 3-5 Destroyers and 5-8 Escort ships.
Cruiser would be fast raider as big as any battleship but very fast ship (not necessarily fast in maneuvering speed though). Their role is to act as deep raider and attack weak points. They can act on their own or in groups up to about three. They would be fast enough to be able to evade any real threats. Cruisers would have some troops, fighters, point defenses and close order weaponry. Perhaps even warp inhibitors to trap weak and slow enemy ships.
When it comes to the size of my smallest ships they seem to be really expensive if below 300 in size in comparison for how efficient they are, thus I figured that my escorts should be around 250-300 in size in the later part of the game.
Since I have not gone very far into the game, starting all over several times to learn and understand things I have not experimented with any really large ships yet.
My biggest ships have been 300 in size or there about.
My current designs were an Escort with only beam-weapons at about 2/3 the size of a Frigate or Destroyer. My Frigates and Destroyers were of the same size but very different in role. The Frigate has been a quick response ship that mostly relied on speed and firepower and medium defenses. The destroyer was similar to the frigate but less speed and more firepower and defenses. The frigate and destroyer were simply as big as I could make them, no reason not to the way I saw it. So between 200-300 in my case.
Going forward I was thinking of making Frigates and Destroyers in sizes of 300-500, Escort in sizes of 200-300 and the rest as big as I can make them. Capital ships are just that, huge battleships that basically should act as the backbone of any fleet with all the stuff I need for offensive action. Destroyers will be the escort for capital ships while Escort ships are escort for the fleet as a whole or act as very fast fire-brigade squadrons in conjunction with Frigates as defense forces. I could see a strong offensive fleet be something like 2 battleships, 2 carrier and 3-5 destroyers per battleship/carrier and one Escort ship for every ship in the fleet. A smaller fleet would be 1 Battleship/Carrier, 3-5 Destroyers and 5-8 Escort ships.
Cruiser would be fast raider as big as any battleship but very fast ship (not necessarily fast in maneuvering speed though). Their role is to act as deep raider and attack weak points. They can act on their own or in groups up to about three. They would be fast enough to be able to evade any real threats. Cruisers would have some troops, fighters, point defenses and close order weaponry. Perhaps even warp inhibitors to trap weak and slow enemy ships.
When it comes to the size of my smallest ships they seem to be really expensive if below 300 in size in comparison for how efficient they are, thus I figured that my escorts should be around 250-300 in size in the later part of the game.
RE: Small ship designs?
I think it was said that smaller size ships have a bonus to evade, but I don't have source, or know if it is true, or just a figment of my imagination.
Other than that, there isn't any game mechanic device which would make it so you would make a smaller ship more effective than a larger ship, combat wise.
Other than that, there isn't any game mechanic device which would make it so you would make a smaller ship more effective than a larger ship, combat wise.
RE: Small ship designs?
I like to limit my escorts to 300, load them up with missile launchers, minimal shielding, and any extra speed i can manage. Setting engagement rules to standoff should (hopefully) keep it out of range of enemy weapons.
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Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Small ship designs?
From the in game encyclopedia the size, speed and maneuverability of a ship will have a relatively big effect on how hard they will be to target.
I will try and aim for about 250 in size for my escorts but I will use more close range weapons to draw on benefit of them irritating the enemy and dodging their shots. Once their shields are down to 50% they will retreat and recharge and then get back in again.
I will try and aim for about 250 in size for my escorts but I will use more close range weapons to draw on benefit of them irritating the enemy and dodging their shots. Once their shields are down to 50% they will retreat and recharge and then get back in again.
RE: Small ship designs?
The thing is though, we don't actually know if that effect occurs or not. A lot of things in the game encyclopedia has changed or don't work as they should.
Your best bet is to either pm the developer, or post in the main section of the forum.
Interesting though, how you go from asking a question about game mechanics and then decide to talk about roleplaying.
Your best bet is to either pm the developer, or post in the main section of the forum.
Interesting though, how you go from asking a question about game mechanics and then decide to talk about roleplaying.
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Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Small ship designs?
Yes... I'm mainly interested in the mechanic of the game.
I think that my rant was mainly about my observation and experiences so far and what I did to test how things worked.
I have done some more observation and it does seem that a ships size in combination with speed and manoeuvrability has an impact. This seem to be more obvious at long ranges than short ranges against fast weapons such as beams. At longer ranges smaller ships seem to have a significant advantage (giving same speed and turn rates) than a bigger ship.
My conclusion so far is that smaller more vulnerable ships should be armed with long range weapons and I find missiles to be the most useful weapon so far.
Putting beam weapons on them seem to be a poor use of the smaller platforms. In the same way that it is a waste of resources to build fast manoeuvrable large ships for the same reason. Large ships seem better for heavy combat ability so they can take and hold objectives, smaller ships are not as useful for that.
So far my observation seem to confirm that smaller ships is harder to hit, at least in some situations. I will continue to use my smaller ships as WWII torpedo boats but with missiles instead of torpedoes. They will still be quite vulnerable against fighters though so a few PD weapons would perhaps not hurt when that is a threat.
I think that my rant was mainly about my observation and experiences so far and what I did to test how things worked.
I have done some more observation and it does seem that a ships size in combination with speed and manoeuvrability has an impact. This seem to be more obvious at long ranges than short ranges against fast weapons such as beams. At longer ranges smaller ships seem to have a significant advantage (giving same speed and turn rates) than a bigger ship.
My conclusion so far is that smaller more vulnerable ships should be armed with long range weapons and I find missiles to be the most useful weapon so far.
Putting beam weapons on them seem to be a poor use of the smaller platforms. In the same way that it is a waste of resources to build fast manoeuvrable large ships for the same reason. Large ships seem better for heavy combat ability so they can take and hold objectives, smaller ships are not as useful for that.
So far my observation seem to confirm that smaller ships is harder to hit, at least in some situations. I will continue to use my smaller ships as WWII torpedo boats but with missiles instead of torpedoes. They will still be quite vulnerable against fighters though so a few PD weapons would perhaps not hurt when that is a threat.
RE: Small ship designs?
So far, I haven't seen any reason not to build ships to the max size. Bigger definitely seems better in terms of survivibility and putting more damage on target.
In MOO2, I used small very fast ships for boarding, but here you have to batter down the shields first. Not sure if I see any reason in the state sector for small ships given the current mechanics.
I would enjoy a dynamic of hiding from other ships and sensors by landing small ships on planets and moons, powering down in asteroid fields or gas clouds, orbiting gas giants within radiation belts or rings etc. This would necessitate regular patrols for a closer look and little more cat and mouse. Currently, I just station Explorers with long range sensors in deep space to keep an eye on things.
In MOO2, I used small very fast ships for boarding, but here you have to batter down the shields first. Not sure if I see any reason in the state sector for small ships given the current mechanics.
I would enjoy a dynamic of hiding from other ships and sensors by landing small ships on planets and moons, powering down in asteroid fields or gas clouds, orbiting gas giants within radiation belts or rings etc. This would necessitate regular patrols for a closer look and little more cat and mouse. Currently, I just station Explorers with long range sensors in deep space to keep an eye on things.
RE: Small ship designs?
Very funny Jorgen_CAB, I can't tell if you are doing it deliberately, or you are completely unaware of yourself.
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Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Small ship designs?
ORIGINAL: Plant
Very funny Jorgen_CAB, I can't tell if you are doing it deliberately, or you are completely unaware of yourself.
Don't really know what you mean... I was talking about my experiences about the game mechanics, or what?
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Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Small ship designs?
ORIGINAL: ReadeB
So far, I haven't seen any reason not to build ships to the max size. Bigger definitely seems better in terms of survivibility and putting more damage on target.
In MOO2, I used small very fast ships for boarding, but here you have to batter down the shields first. Not sure if I see any reason in the state sector for small ships given the current mechanics.
I would enjoy a dynamic of hiding from other ships and sensors by landing small ships on planets and moons, powering down in asteroid fields or gas clouds, orbiting gas giants within radiation belts or rings etc. This would necessitate regular patrols for a closer look and little more cat and mouse. Currently, I just station Explorers with long range sensors in deep space to keep an eye on things.
I just restarted a game now and will try some interesting tactics.
The way I see it, if you build some ships with a smaller size you can be in more places at the same time. Although it will require more micromanagement. A ship does not have to be bigger than it can defeat a station by itself.
No reason to use a sledgehammer to hammer in a nail!
My reasoning here is to build a Frigate class whose mission it is to raid and work behind enemy lines, take the fight to them instead of sitting and waiting. The same tactics will be used against pirates.
I certainly agree that in pure combat fleets the majority of your ships should be quite large to get that offensive punch.
It would still be interesting to know the game mechanic behind a ships size and speed and how that factor in to the hit rate of weapons, if it even does?
It seems as if it has an effect, at least against missiles and torpedoes.
RE: Small ship designs?
Raiders might be interesting as long as you can refuel somewhere. Never played as a pirate.
Although I kind of don't want to take the pressure the pirates provide off other empires in far off regions. Mostly I see very weak empires trying to deal with powerful pirates, and losing.
When I am expanding, I use sledgehammer attack fleets to keep pirates from raiding my newly "acquired" colonies. I try to catch as many pirate ships at their spaceports as possible.
The one recent tactic I've started using is using single destroyers to go and capture pirate Constructors. That's when sending the large fleet is a waste.
Although I kind of don't want to take the pressure the pirates provide off other empires in far off regions. Mostly I see very weak empires trying to deal with powerful pirates, and losing.
When I am expanding, I use sledgehammer attack fleets to keep pirates from raiding my newly "acquired" colonies. I try to catch as many pirate ships at their spaceports as possible.
The one recent tactic I've started using is using single destroyers to go and capture pirate Constructors. That's when sending the large fleet is a waste.
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Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Small ship designs?
We are drifting from the core question, but I believe that is answered anyway... 
I'm just in the beginning of my first really serious game now and my ship designs are still really small (230 size) so all ships are pretty much max size. But I find that ships below 250 in size is very hard to make into something useful other than scouting/exploring with.
My current plan is to build a ship that is a mixture of scout/raider. With raider I mean a ship that can take over enemy stations or destroy them. I believe a ship like this will have to be about 300-350 in size and they will operate more or less in small squadrons but will attack on their own in enemy systems. I might also design a specific support ship for them to carry fuel and able to repair them, sort of a command ship/base.
I can also see the reason to build military patrol ships (which will be my escort ships perhaps) at sizes of about 400-500. Their main role is the patrol of star systems. Each ship will usually patrol a sensitive installation and several can be in the same system and back each other up. Their main function is to operate with speed and ranged weapons, they are not suppose to fight heavily armed gunships.
I will then design sledge hammer fleets that will be held behind the lines in common areas used against invasions or invasions of my own.
I would also planning of a few naval shipyard planets. Basically a place where I have lots of naval shipyards. My plan was that in peace time my fleet should not be so large, mainly patrol ships and some fleets for defense. Once I enter into a war I will simply mass produce ships very quickly. When the war is over I will decommission most of those ships. The maintenance in the game is pretty high in comparison with the cost and I seem to be able to make a turn around on a decommissioned ship in about three to four years. I think I also will save on money on refits as well, not sure.
All in all, I find ships that are small somewhat useless as a fighting platform. Mostly because they need lots of engines, thrusters and other stuff and very little space is left over for weapons. That make them useful mostly for scouting and raiding and defending against similar ships at most. They serve no other purpose in my military combat fleets.
I'm just in the beginning of my first really serious game now and my ship designs are still really small (230 size) so all ships are pretty much max size. But I find that ships below 250 in size is very hard to make into something useful other than scouting/exploring with.
My current plan is to build a ship that is a mixture of scout/raider. With raider I mean a ship that can take over enemy stations or destroy them. I believe a ship like this will have to be about 300-350 in size and they will operate more or less in small squadrons but will attack on their own in enemy systems. I might also design a specific support ship for them to carry fuel and able to repair them, sort of a command ship/base.
I can also see the reason to build military patrol ships (which will be my escort ships perhaps) at sizes of about 400-500. Their main role is the patrol of star systems. Each ship will usually patrol a sensitive installation and several can be in the same system and back each other up. Their main function is to operate with speed and ranged weapons, they are not suppose to fight heavily armed gunships.
I will then design sledge hammer fleets that will be held behind the lines in common areas used against invasions or invasions of my own.
I would also planning of a few naval shipyard planets. Basically a place where I have lots of naval shipyards. My plan was that in peace time my fleet should not be so large, mainly patrol ships and some fleets for defense. Once I enter into a war I will simply mass produce ships very quickly. When the war is over I will decommission most of those ships. The maintenance in the game is pretty high in comparison with the cost and I seem to be able to make a turn around on a decommissioned ship in about three to four years. I think I also will save on money on refits as well, not sure.
All in all, I find ships that are small somewhat useless as a fighting platform. Mostly because they need lots of engines, thrusters and other stuff and very little space is left over for weapons. That make them useful mostly for scouting and raiding and defending against similar ships at most. They serve no other purpose in my military combat fleets.
RE: Small ship designs?
ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
ORIGINAL: Plant
Very funny Jorgen_CAB, I can't tell if you are doing it deliberately, or you are completely unaware of yourself.
Don't really know what you mean... I was talking about my experiences about the game mechanics, or what?
I noted that you say that you are interested in the mechanics of the game, and then you talk purely about roleplaying. So in responce you then you did exactly that in your next post. And in another thread too.
RE: Small ship designs?
ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
The way I see it, if you build some ships with a smaller size you can be in more places at the same time. Although it will require more micromanagement. A ship does not have to be bigger than it can defeat a station by itself.
No reason to use a sledgehammer to hammer in a nail!
In practice, you only need to be able to have one ship per system to be able to have a presence to defend everything.
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Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Small ship designs?
ORIGINAL: Plant
ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
The way I see it, if you build some ships with a smaller size you can be in more places at the same time. Although it will require more micromanagement. A ship does not have to be bigger than it can defeat a station by itself.
No reason to use a sledgehammer to hammer in a nail!
In practice, you only need to be able to have one ship per system to be able to have a presence to defend everything.
I was not talking about defence here...
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Jorgen_CAB
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- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:53 pm
RE: Small ship designs?
ORIGINAL: Plant
ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
ORIGINAL: Plant
Very funny Jorgen_CAB, I can't tell if you are doing it deliberately, or you are completely unaware of yourself.
Don't really know what you mean... I was talking about my experiences about the game mechanics, or what?
I noted that you say that you are interested in the mechanics of the game, and then you talk purely about roleplaying. So in responce you then you did exactly that in your next post. And in another thread too.
Yes it sometimes get mixed up in each other, no big deal. You are allowed to talk about both if you feel like it.
RE: Small ship designs?
Alternatively, you can talk in this thread which you have made, instead of randomly posting in another thread that bears no relation to this one.
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Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Small ship designs?
ORIGINAL: Plant
Alternatively, you can talk in this thread which you have made, instead of randomly posting in another thread that bears no relation to this one.
I will...