Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland

[mktours]

I think you are misled by someone. If the developer declared anything illegal, you could easily trace them out, but there is not.
Saper is a very good player, to get the chance to play with him as a new player is a privilege. It might be better to ignore some attacks at the character of your opponent when he is not supposed to read this AAR and hence could not defend himself. Some people hate him, but that is a distraction of a AAR and your game.
What Saper did in T1 is very common, what Saper did in T2 is not difficult to figure out by anyone who is a good player, there is nothing illegal in it.

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

If I'm somehow making anyone reading this think its a test of manhood I'm creating a terrible misunderstanding. Opening aside, my goal for this particular game was to learn how to play the game well, and I am learning a lot. I've been playing wargames since the 1970s, this is just a really fast way to climb the learning curve. If my defense falls apart and I lose that is ok, and if I somehow get Sapper222 under control and win (which I think is unlikely) more the better.

I did not realize the devs had declared this opening illegal. Obviously they have not done anything that stops people from playing it. I'm not expert enough at the game to feel confident making suggestions on how to fix it, but I will say that there are a lot of holes in the turn1 pockets Sapper222 is making, maybe that implies a certain type of solution. I've been playing around a bit with the Soviet turn one, and though its possible to breach the pockets it not possible to get out of them, and it looks like it would be pretty difficult to breach them a second time on T2. I looked into sneaky parachute tricks and other gamey stuff and none of that really works either.

It's a shame it takes a house rule to unbreak the game.

[SigUp]

You are mistaken mktours. The super Lvov, whereby you encircle everything west of Zhitomir was declared unwanted by the developers. Why else do you think were the Rumanians move away from the border? This opener by sapper under the rules since the .09 patch is not common. At least there is no AAR in which this was done.

[mktours]

please cite the declare document to me, I didn't see any document that declaring something "illegal" by the developer.

ORIGINAL: SigUp

You are mistaken mktours. The super Lvov, whereby you encircle everything west of Zhitomir was declared unwanted by the developers. Why else do you think were the Rumanians move away from the border? This opener by sapper under the rules since the .09 patch is not common. At least there is no AAR in which this was done.

[mktours]

Sigup, this T1 is common.

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

First turn, he surrounds many Soviet troops, pretty much as usual. I reopen the southern pocket:




I do not expect to get much if anything out, but I am hoping that it will take him a bit longer to reduce the pocket. I've set up skirmish lines at various places in the North and South, but don't plan to be super aggressive. All air units are on manual reinforcement. Fortification at Leningrad and Rostov has started, and a line that I expect to abandon has been formed in front of Kiev.

I tried to upload a screenshot of the South, but it does not appear to be working, any idea why?

Currently I'm thinking trade ground for time, and try to slow him down, especially with the units already in pockets.

[mktours]

Sigup, this T2 is uncommon, but any good player would easily figure out how it worked and there is nothing illegal in it. If a good SHC aware of this beforehand, it could escape and it could even benefit from it.

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

In the South I failed to locate his armor in Hungary, and underestimated how fast he could move with the Northern part of his force. This lead me to put my rear area stop lines too far forward, and he surrounded more troops. This turn I was unable to break his line, which is going to cause me trouble as I it may be stronger next turn. I’m also concerned that he might have enough fuel to do another envelopment, but I feel its worth the risk to move troops up and possibly resupply the pocket in T3.

I moved Bryansk front and other troops North towards Tula and Moscow, further weakening the South. I am gambling that the North will be the critical front in 1941.

Over all I am happy with the North where any mistakes I made T2 were small, but concerned about the South.

[SigUp]

I did not say it was illegal, I said it was unwanted. It goes in the same direction, but there is a little difference between that. And you want a statement, here's one by Joel:

2. In all campaigns and scenarios starting June 22, 1941, moved 2 Rumanian units back from the border near Chernovtsy. This allows Soviet units to use the rail next to the border on turn 2 if it is not cut by German units from the north. This was done to reduce the effectiveness of the German Super Lvov Pocket strategy. Also reduced the fort level of Hanko to 3.

You say that opening is quite common, well it was quite common before 1.07.09. But I have yet to see another post 1.07.09 AAR in which this opening was done.

[Flaviusx]

It's illegal and it will be nerfed in due course. Bank on this. Sapper just found a different way to accomplish what the original fix was intended to address.

Here's the bottom line: if you're wiping out the whole of SW and South Fronts in a couple of turns you are well into cheese territory; this is pretty self evident and a matter of common sense.

This is only possible by exploiting the surprise turn mechanics and the staggered activation of South Front. Let's not kid ourselves about this.

They key here, as far as I can tell, is the way he slipped armor through Hungary by rail on turn 1.

[SigUp]

It is not possible to rail units into Hungary on turn 1. For the first two turns Hungary is off limits for German units.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

I don't see any armor going through Hungry. If you look at the screenshot of turn 1 you see that Sapper has parked one armor division together with the HQ near the Romanian border. That armor division gets encircled but because it's together with the HQ it gets maximum fuel the next turn. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Flaviusx]

Hmm, no I think you are correct Bozo. Nevertheless, it's mind boggling that virtually the entire SW Front got surrounded on turn 2.

Even cutting off spearheads won't do anything here if they are parked on an HQ. This is really quite as bad as the original extended Lvov as it accomplishes the same end result.

I'm at the point of throwing up my hands here and waiting for WITE 2.0. This is broken beyond belief.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

It would be nice to have a fix that would prevent the HQ from delivering fuel/supplies to any divisions if it is encircled. Don't know if it's doable though. Maybe morvael could enlighten us?

Oh, and a fix to the paratrooper system would be nice too. Because I'm doing stuff that I shouldn't be allowed to do. Just plain crazy stuff.

And the 2:1 rule needs to go as well.

I still think it's possible to make this an almost perfect game. Just a couple more tweaks.

[Flaviusx]

WITW will fix paras and amphibious operations and that will get ported over. They're getting a comprehensive overhaul. But I very much doubt this new model can be grafted over to the existing game engine, it's probably going to have to wait until 2.0. The good news is most folks have a working set of house rules to tame these special units; people really need to use some common sense and self restraint here and by large they have.

The 2:1 rule is Gary's thing. Maybe he'll fall out of love with it in 2.0.

So far as HQs and supply goes, I wonder if the two should be decoupled entirely. Wandering supply dumps with 50 MPs is just a recipe for endless mischief. You're entirely at the mercy of your opponents sense of fair play.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

If one had common sense one wouldn't invade Russia. [:D]

[Bozo_the_Clown]

You're entirely at the mercy of your opponents sense of fair play.

I don't think this has anything to do with fair play. You could likewise say that it's unfair for the Soviets to entrench to level 3 forts so fast etc. etc. The back and forth complaining would never stop.

It's a game and the goal is to outsmart/outmaneuver the other guy. I hope Tom will continue this game. I would like to see how it plays out.

[SigUp]

Well, I personally do consider the issue of a mega Lvov pocket an issue of fair play. Mainly because there is nothing the Soviet player can do to stop it. But oh well, it's already happened. No need to further hijack Tom's AAR with that.

[Tom Hunter]

It's fine to drift the thread some, I'll post another turn by Friday, in the mean time this is an informative discussion. The AAR and commentary both help me learn and think about the game. It’s a little disappointing to get confirmation that the Soviets do not get the historical replacement rate, though that was becoming obvious to me as I played the game. (It’s not nearly as disappointing as discovering the entire naval gunnery model was broken in War In the Pacific, I wrote very long analytical threads on that at the time, its fixed now.)

I’m certainly going to continue playing this game with Sapper222. All simulations have problems, I have not decided if I consider the problems with this game to be deal breakers.
I think the design problem with the big Lvov pocket is the guaranteed riskless victory with no negative side effects.

I wonder if you could code the game so the AI played German T1, and then the Soviets move, and then the players take over. Or even have the AI run both sides on T1 and the humans start T2. You would have a different start every time.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I wonder if you could code the game so the AI played German T1, and then the Soviets move, and then the players take over. Or even have the AI run both sides on T1 and the humans start T2. You would have a different start every time.

I actually had meant to raise a similar thought to the Devs at some point - having a generic T+.5 GC where there was a standard "open" already played (presumably including standard Lvov) and starting with Sov reaction turn. If I were to play as the German I would actually prefer not having to do all the work of the first turn, and it could eliminate a lot of cheese.

[SigUp]

All issues aside, the game is nevertheless quite good. It's complaining on a high level. Sure, replacement rate for both sides could be better, combat model could be better, air model could be better etc. But in the end it is a terrific game and if you can find a suitable opponent (like me right now with loki [:D]) it is very much enjoyable. The problem with the South is the surprise turn. The surprise turn rules does its job fairly good in the North and Centre, but in the South it enables the Germans to do too much. Then again, the South is a very tricky matter. If the Germans are limited to their historical June - early July gains, the Wehrmacht will barely make it past the Dnepr. A human Soviet player would never allow an Uman, not to mention a Kiev, to happen. My take on it is shown in my AAR. I have no problem with the Germans getting more than was historical possible to balance out the lack of pockets later on, but the mega Lvov opener just goes too far.

EDIT: A problem I have with a post T-1 start is that it fixes the deployment of the panzer corps. While I don't do the Lvov opener I still send a panzer corps from 2nd to 1st Panzer Group. I personally need 4 panzer corps in the south.

[Flaviusx]

Tom, in ordinary game you might get 3 million replacements in 1941, not including reinforcements. (This isn't an ordinary game and you're going to get less than that.) So the Red Army is pretty fragile in 1941 and cannot take anything like historical losses. Furthermore, losing all 4 border Fronts early on leaves you with very little to take on said replacements as it takes a long time for units to return from the deadpile.

Essentially the massive Lvov is very close to an I win button on turn 1 especially combined with the game's logistics. You could have done things to optimize your evacuation better, but even so, one mistake and you're going to see a lot of industry get trashed and armaments are a weak point in the Soviet in game war economy.

I'm going to be perfectly candid here and say that you are almost certainly boned. A veteran Soviet player might recover from this, especially if he was willing to counter Sapper's cheese with his own cheese, but you just don't have that kind of knowledge of the game systems. (And if you did you might not be so keen on the cheese. Not everybody subscribes to the just win, baby philosophy in the context of a historical wargame.)

I'm furious at Sapper both for abusing the game system but more importantly for taking advantage of you. He ought to pick on somebody his own size. There's only a very few people who are both at his level of play and willing to deploy the cheese without any restraint. He ought to confine himself to that league. Playing newbies for suckers is, as I have said, extremely dirty pool.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

And the 2:1 rule needs to go as well.

I don't necessarily disagree with ending 2:1 per se (it is gimmicky), but something has to help the Soviets have some capacity to punch back in the summer of '41 (stronger CVs, better morale, more MPs, something...). Without 2:1 it's exceedingly difficult, which only enhances the appeal of running away / boredom.