Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go

[Dabrion]

Mine arrived yesterday (no customs charges). Really don't know what kind of "books" people read usually, they look like the usual hard cover book to me. I still do not understand why I had to get them along with the software.

Some guy on the wifdiscussion mentioned he is looking at his purchase more like a supporting a project on kick-starter. I since adopted that stance. Down that line... when will we see MWiF mugs and lighters?

[DSWargamer]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



The addition of the books is overpriced. They add too little product for too much money.

I am glad that some people want to support FedEx by paying all that extra shipping. Even happier that they want to help out their failing European economies by paying the taxes for it, instead of just downloading the game.

If I really wanted hardcover books, I would have taken the PDF to a bookbinder and had them print me one.

The books are not even that nice to read. The charts in the back of V.2 are fuzzy/small and hard to read or use. The choice of a yellow sandy background with grey print makes it hard to read. The back cover is a useless rah-rah summary of a game you already own.

The books are designed for people who have never heard of World in Flames, and need to be taught how to play from the ground up. For people (like me) who have played the game for years, through all its iterations, all this verbose information is an annoyance. And will become an annoyance for you once you learn how to play.

Sure the books look nice. Feel nice. But the information I need from them is just too hard to dig out while playing, and in the end, I will end up just printing the reference material I want to have at hand for the game, or even just use the chart from the original game, and park the books to be opened seldom on the bookshelf. In the basement. Unless I need something to stand on to reach the top shelf.

Hmm I consider the books the main event, I guess we differ here. I don't think they add too little.

I have to say, every time I hear complaints about the cost to ship these books it sounds like the people are just cheap. What have you never had to ship anything before?

Good luck at the book binders though. I'd love to see what THEY would charge you for your one only set. Books are not cheap. Ask any ASLer what it costs to get custom wargame manuals bound when you even provide the printed materials for them and all they have to do it put them in a binding.

I don't think anyone that has not heard of WiF would have the slightest interest in virtually any of this game actually. It's not an entry level wargame. I think the audience are all hard core fans of the board game.

You might need glasses as well. The print is fine to me. And I actually DO normally need reading glasses.

I find it amusing, that you have a hard time locating information you should have already learned though. You claim to have been playing the game for years.
I have the ASL manual mainly for clarity of disagreements for instance. But I know where all the information is. I've been playing it for decades.

It's time the people not wanting the books realized, the computer game is a space convenience, the books are not a pointless extra. It's unfortunate some people live in annoying regions of the planet. It's up to the people living there, to fix that I suppose.

The books are so many time better than a pdf file. Nope I have hundreds of books in digital form, I mainly have them as they no longer exist in printed form in most cases. Not because I prefer them as digital. It is easier to carry a stack of digital books from point A to point B. not because they are more fun to read. Yeah you can set up pdf files to search words. I also find it easy to scan pages in a real book though.

People have avoided saying it, I am not inclined to be that shy though.
I think a lot of the reason a lot of people have expressed a desire to ditch the books and just get the game, and settle for pdfs is not because pdfs are better, but people are in this case being cheap.

Oh I have seen the threads boys. You are always looking for a way to skim yet more and more off of the price. You want it cheaper and cheaper and cheaper.
Hey some things are not cheap, unlikely to ever be cheap, and if you can't afford it, hey sometimes you just don't get to have it. Life is like that. Sometimes you get to be the boy that doesn't get to have the toy all the other kids have.

This purchase would have been a good purchase as 200 bucks.
This purchase is 10 times better than that 3 games I have bought that would add up to the same dollar sum.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: bo
Never had a kindle, can you put the pdfs on it?

In my experience kindles are not good with a pdf, because they pdf text does not scale on them. For pdfs better to use an iPad or something with a bigger screen, and in color.

[Dabrion]

I do not think I am cheap.. I think you are blatantly generalising there.

I do like to read on my tablet. Reading scientific articles on a daily basis leads to a lot of annotations and references that want to be managed. Not to speak of searching/indexing. I could do that with coloured markers and postits and the like. But I prefer to do it electronically. It works well.. and leads to a very different appreciation for dead wood. Might also be a generational problem..

Arguments about how the physical books are worth (X amount of money) and I just payed (less than X amount of money) are therefore totally lost on me. I also do not see any valid reason why it should not be possible to have the extra service of printing out the manuals as an addon product, much like the maps. So there must be another reason for that..

[Gizuria]

Hmm I consider the books the main event, I guess we differ here.

The computer game itself is the main event for some of us [;)] For those of us who value the computer game and are happy to read PDFs, they add precisely nothing. You can't argue with that the same way as I can't argue with your preference for books and the computer game being a mere sideshow.

The books are so many time better than a pdf file.

Of course, real, hard-bound books are a luxury item and make for a better reading experience. [8|] No argument from me there as my bookcase would testify to. But this is a game experience, not a book experience.

People have avoided saying it, I am not inclined to be that shy though.

They have probably 'avoided saying it' for a very good reason. It does you no credit that you are not ashamed to say it.[:-]

I think a lot of the reason a lot of people have expressed a desire to ditch the books and just get the game, and settle for pdfs is not because pdfs are better, but people are in this case being cheap.

Oh I have seen the threads boys. You are always looking for a way to skim yet more and more off of the price. You want it cheaper and cheaper and cheaper.
Hey some things are not cheap, unlikely to ever be cheap, and if you can't afford it, hey sometimes you just don't get to have it. Life is like that. Sometimes you get to be the boy that doesn't get to have the toy all the other kids have.

This purchase would have been a good purchase as 200 bucks.
This purchase is 10 times better than that 3 games I have bought that would add up to the same dollar sum.

You have resorted to calling folks cheap. Well, the following video link speaks for me. Watch it. It's genuinely funny even if is pointed at you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lzS8yW8INA

[Missouri_Rebel]

Pdf's are best on the computer. Every single mobile Pdf reader, including Adobe, lacks important features. Having both a Kindle and an Ipad, they are definitely easier to read on the Ipad.

I'm assuming you are talking about the Kindle Fire. I have a Kindle reader also, but I don't think it supports pdf's.

Of the three, the Kindle reader is best for traditional book reading. Nothing is easier on my eyes than it. My wife got me the Ipad last Christmas, and even though I thought I wouldn't, I enjoy and use it quite a bit. I haven't touched the Fire since.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel
I'm assuming you are talking about the Kindle Fire. I have a Kindle reader also, but I don't think it supports pdf's.

Kindle paperwhites "support" pdfs in that you can load them and open them on the paperwhite. It's just that it will be very difficult to read (at least for me), because the pdf text is so small. only slighly better on the kindle fire, because while the screen is in color and brighter, it is no larger.

on the iPad and other large tablets, the screen is bright enough and big enough to make reading the pdfs much easier.

[LiquidSky]

Alas, I have more money then sense. So I didn't hesitate to buy the game, and would have bought it for my friends as well, if it was playable multi-player.

Just for fun, I am going to critique the books.

Lets start with Rules As Coded.

This is essentially a free download on line as RAW. With some minor clarifications/deviations as they apply to the computer game. So minor that on page 186-192, they list those changes. They could have printed just that, and let us use the RAW. Didn't even need to include it with the game.

Then there is not one, but two Players manual for the game. Which wastes an awful lot of space repeating itself, giving me useless pictures of the forms in game. (I have the form, its on the computer in front of me, why do I need a fuzzy, barely readable picture of it in the book?). As well, it basically repeats the Rules as COded..in case you missed the first book.

The players manual is overly verbose....for example: Advancing after Combat step. 41 Lines.

The Players Manual's were written for clueless newbies who never played the original game.

Twice I have wanted to find information in the books. The first time was to figure out what the colour dots meant over/beside the counters. The second time was to prod my memory on what resources the CW get. In the end, I gave up on the book, and used the ingame help for the colour dots, and the original card from the board game for the resources.

Now, I do understand. Some people like shiny things. They feel better buying shiny things. For those people, the books should (and are) be available.

Those of us who care more for substance over style could take the PDF's...and pay especial attention to this next part:

PRINT THEM OURSELVES.

Now...for less then the 100$ you spent to have the books. (assuming 50$ game/50$ books/50$ shipping), I too can have the pleasure of reading actual paper.

Only my paper will be 8.5*11 (and white!), printed on a much better printer then the one they used for the books, and bound in a 3 ring binder (or for about 10 bucks, I can get it bound at a binders).

Hell...I could spend the 100 bucks and get baby seal skin covers, with gold embossed lettering...if I was a pretentious elitist ass who thought that the outside quality of the book mattered.

[chekers_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: chekers

I ordered the game on the day it came out and I've still not received the e-mail confirmation of it being sent to me. So thanks for rubbing it in my face [:@]

My books arrived on Wednesday and I am the happiest man alive. In fact I've been buried in them since I've gotten them and this is the first chance I've gotten to post about how much I love them! I feel like a giddy little school girl!

[bo]

I asked as nice as I could to tone down the conversation please, I am not a moderator here just a concerned beta tester hoping that every player here enjoys the game when some things get corrected the word clueless newbies is insulting in my opinion to many of the posters here, I would never ask anyone to not speak their feelings but insults shoud not be tolerated, and again it is bordering on trolling.

My opinion is you had a choice all of you and that choice is DONT BUY THE GAME.

Bo

[Missouri_Rebel]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



Alas, I have more money then sense. So I didn't hesitate to buy the game, and would have bought it for my friends as well, if it was playable multi-player.

Just for fun, I am going to critique the books.

Lets start with Rules As Coded.

This is essentially a free download on line as RAW. With some minor clarifications/deviations as they apply to the computer game. So minor that on page 186-192, they list those changes. They could have printed just that, and let us use the RAW. Didn't even need to include it with the game.

Then there is not one, but two Players manual for the game. Which wastes an awful lot of space repeating itself, giving me useless pictures of the forms in game. (I have the form, its on the computer in front of me, why do I need a fuzzy, barely readable picture of it in the book?). As well, it basically repeats the Rules as COded..in case you missed the first book.

The players manual is overly verbose....for example: Advancing after Combat step. 41 Lines.

The Players Manual's were written for clueless newbies who never played the original game.

Twice I have wanted to find information in the books. The first time was to figure out what the colour dots meant over/beside the counters. The second time was to prod my memory on what resources the CW get. In the end, I gave up on the book, and used the ingame help for the colour dots, and the original card from the board game for the resources.

Now, I do understand. Some people like shiny things. They feel better buying shiny things. For those people, the books should (and are) be available.

Those of us who care more for substance over style could take the PDF's...and pay especial attention to this next part:

PRINT THEM OURSELVES.

Now...for less then the 100$ you spent to have the books. (assuming 50$ game/50$ books/50$ shipping), I too can have the pleasure of reading actual paper.

Only my paper will be 8.5*11 (and white!), printed on a much better printer then the one they used for the books, and bound in a 3 ring binder (or for about 10 bucks, I can get it bound at a binders).

Hell...I could spend the 100 bucks and get baby seal skin covers, with gold embossed lettering...if I was a pretentious elitist ass who thought that the outside quality of the book mattered.

I'm starting to get the feeling you're not happy with the manuals. [:)]

I do take exception to the statement about the manuals being written for new players as a bad thing. Accessibility is the key to expanding the opponent base and appeal of any game, especially such a monster game as WiF.

mo reb

[warspite1]

Well I agree with LiquidSky - why would anyone, game company or otherwise, write a manual for people who don't know anything about the product? In fact I would go further, why have a manual (whether pdf, soft back or hard back) at all?

I mean trying to allow your customers to understand how to play your game - that's just preposterous. What were Matrix thinking of?

When I got the boardgame version of WIF back in the 90's it came with a 60+ page rules booklet and a scenarios booklet. Why? Why would they do that? Why would I, as a newcomer to the game, want to be able to understand how to play it? Surely they could have just handed out a one page A4 size leaflet with a few high level pointers?

Good point LiquidSky - real intelligent.

[Dabrion]

PDFs read very nice on the modern tablets. You need more than 200ppi (thats full hd for a 10inch tablet) to have clear letters at all zoom levels. I recently got this any I wish Matrix Games had bundled one with the PDFs! [8D]

[Centuur]

The books are better readable than a pdf...

And I'm getting very, very tired with people here about not wanting the books. There is another topic for this. This is a topic which was about the quality of the books. Not about whether you want those or not...

People who don't want the books: there is another topic for this. Get away here. Spill you frustrations on that part of the forum and not here...

[DSWargamer]

I didn't expect anyone to LIKE being called cheap. But considering the character assassinations I have already witnessed directed at me, I decided I simply didn't care.

Pdfs are a convenience when it is NOT possible to employ a book. They are not superior, they are often an alternative for when you have no other option.
But to mention you can read some minor literature on one, and then state that a massive manual is equal, well that simply lacks any credibility. Most readers are either suffering screen size due to needing to be portable, or lacking ability to be able to display colour. Kindles were meant for paperback reading emulation. And that is all they are good for.

My Nexus 7 is handy because it fits in my purse, not because it can carry a thousand books.
It's handy because it can play some light games, or display a web browser or allow me to watch some video. And do it while on the go.
The fact a computer is better with a pdf file, misses a point, the computer is likely already being used for the game. And if I am at home, chances are I'd rather be looking at a book, than looking at a tablet as the tablet is mainly superior for mobility.

Most of the time when I am at home, if using a tablet, I am doing something with it other than using is as a tool for a complex wargame.

The argument that those willingly wanting to use a tablet instead of a real book, is just the defense of the cheap trying to justify being cheap.
And no, you are not going to get a cheaper better deal at a conventional printer. Saying so is full of it.

I am not so positive that Liquid is reading the same books I am reading.

For one they are not poorly printed, nor is there any problem with the art, nor have I ever experienced a professional printer do an equal level of product, and you can forget getting the same level of quality on any form of privately owned laser copier.

As for verbose literature, I am beginning to wonder if Liquid has actually ever really played any actual wargames to start with. I happen to know what happens in wargame designs, based on board games that involve humans if you don't qualify ever last possible permutation of interpretation of a statement. Rules lawyers are a scourge in role game designs for this reason.

The ASL manual has had to go to great lengths to explain the difference for example between IN and in a hex. If you can't see the difference, then I suggest you are not really much of a wargamer.

In all of my decades of wargame playings, the only arguments concerning rules, involve not the understanding of what the rules, said, but in the stating of what the rules didn't say.

Now of course, with designs that were never board games at any time in their existence, you don't routinely have this problem, as you can't argue with the program. It does what it does, doesn't offer explanations, and you either get over it or you quit the game and refuse to play it. Oh there IS gamey in board games, but they are a lot different than the gamey in computer games.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
The argument that those willingly wanting to use a tablet instead of a real book, is just the defense of the cheap trying to justify being cheap.

[8|][8|][8|]
[>:][>:]

[AxelNL]

Enough said, let's close this discussion. We all have different tastes, let's respect that. Plenty of choice around.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel
I'm assuming you are talking about the Kindle Fire. I have a Kindle reader also, but I don't think it supports pdf's.

Kindle paperwhites "support" pdfs in that you can load them and open them on the paperwhite. It's just that it will be very difficult to read (at least for me), because the pdf text is so small. only slighly better on the kindle fire, because while the screen is in color and brighter, it is no larger.

on the iPad and other large tablets, the screen is bright enough and big enough to make reading the pdfs much easier.

You can convert the them to AZW format, using a prog called caliber. I read Petre's Napoleon at Bay on my KP that way. (Some day, I'll break down and buy an Ipad.) That way you can play with the font size.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
The argument that those willingly wanting to use a tablet instead of a real book, is just the defense of the cheap trying to justify being cheap.

[8|][8|][8|]
[>:][>:]

Guess she doesn't know that tablets or e-readers cost more than hard cover books..........

[BeastieDog]

Got my books in and have to say they look great. Seem very detailed with a lot of redundancy which is good because I need all the help I can get.