British Expeditionary Force (BEF)

[Antares4]

I would like to know which land units you usually place in france.
Is a commitment of an HQ and an INF kind of standard?
Is it correct to asume that your BEF gets destroyed but that it´s
nevertheless a necessary sacrifice.

[Klydon]

The Brits have to help France or face a very, very long time alone against the Axis. While the Axis may not invade the UK proper, they certainly can consider adventures in the Med by taking Gibraltar and the Suez. As long as Gibraltar is owned by the Axis, Italy is safe. This still allows plenty of time to go visit Russia without a lot of distractions as well.

Bottom line is the CW player would do well to provide ground forces to help take over part of the line to allow the French to move further south. Typically the CW likes to set up shop in Lille and the ports in the area. A HQ and probably at least 3 other units are dispatched while the RAF is concentrated in the south to help provide air cover/support for the BEF. Even if the Germans pour through the lines to the south, the BEF will have a chance to withdraw at least some of their forces unless the Germans decide to make it a point to crush the BEF, in which case they are not concentrating on France itself. Should they decide to do so, it helps your cause to a point because it means the French may last a little longer.

I am sure others have a more recent spin on this. This was more my experience from back in the day, but I think it still holds true for the most part.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

First off, while the CW does set up before the Germans, the necessity of putting the bulk of your starting land units in the UK means that everyone is going to stick Gort and those 2 starting Mots with transports, because you'll want them somewhere, and this gives you a chance to observe the German setup.


So the first thing you need to see is whether or not Germany is doing a France first game. If they are, you might even want to take a combined on the first impulse, stick those transports and escorts in the north sea, and disembark at land, probably winding up as Klydon said, with Gort in Calais and the 2 mot in Lille. If you have a field gun, keep him in Dover to cover the HQ. The French are very weak that first turn, and they're going to need all the support they can get


If the Germans are set up to primarily attack Poland or Yugo on the first turn, you have a bit more breathing space, as they're unlikely to adventure west in the winter. Would then recommend sending Gort into Calais on a naval, and then reorging the transport that took him there, (More expensive with oil, but you need a lot of sealifting those first two turns), followed by your 7-3 reserve inf and either a mil or that 4-1 Garr. The BEF doesn't need to move much, and might be cut out of supply, so power and white print is more important than mobility.



Personally, I find that the BEF survives more often than not, although you do have to be prepared for them to be wiped out. Because the CW don't co-operate with the French, you can't combine your air assets; you're going to have one set of fighters (often the stronger set) guarding the CW units, and another, weaker set, protecting the much longer French line. This encourages the Germans to focus on the French, and where the air units lead, the ground units follow, especially on a narrow front like the Western one.


Whether or not to send more, either in the form of more bodies, or just directly giving build points, is a very lively strategy debate. Personally, I don't like to, I prefer to beef up my presence in Egypt, send a TERR to reinforce Gibraltar, and attack Portugal in the very early game. But advance building Alexander and shuttling another 4 units to France is still a relatively popular idea (or so I remember from strategy discussions some time ago), and if the French last until J/A 40, it's something you should definitely consider doing, as those units can make the French really tough to crack.

[paulderynck]

The BEF is usually Gort plus 2 units. If playing 2D10, I like one of these to be the Mechanized corps because of its defensive benefit.

The Foreign Troop Commitment rule allows Gort to leave after the two units are there (but be careful he's not needed for supply) - but Gort is first priority for evacuation once things go pear-shaped.

[brian brian]

There is also Option B - bringing HQ-A Wavell over from Egypt. I sometimes do this by landing him on the southern French coast and walking him to the Atlantic coast for a safer evacuation. At 8 Build Points, I don't want to commit that HQ to the front lines this early in the war. It must be done carefully around a potentially at-war Italy. But a 2nd HQ does allow a larger BEF to be developed, in northern or southern France.

And Option C - Advance build the HQ-I Alexander on the first turn, which costs 3 extra Build Points but has the HQ arrive in the M/J 40 turn. This is a very aggressive move, and expensive as the CW needs lots and lots of different things all screaming to be a high priority.

Option D - This is similar, but waiting until J/F 40 to build the Alexander HQ, which only costs 5 Build Points, not 8, but makes the HQ arrive in J/A 40.

With any of those 3 decisions, the CW can land more troops. Their quick-to-build MIL are a good choice for this. Sometimes, it can be worth ordering them to be Left Behind in France, in places such as the Brittany ports, simply to cost the Germans effort to get rid of them. This can work somewhat well if the Germans don't take Paris until S/O 40 and bad weather descends on them. But such forces generally can't hold in France, only cost the Axis time dealing with them.

If the CW drew their AT-Gun at-start, that can really help hold a hex in France, but is expensive to replace if you want another one.

[paulderynck]

I worry about any CW troops in the front lines but not on the coast and likely out of CW FTR cover. They are even more vulnerable there then the French are.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

You know, I've seen people talk about the "Bring Wavell to France" plan, but I never quite understood. Aren't you essentially handing over Egypt on a silver platter to the Italians? You're going to need at least 4 sea moves to get your BEF guys into France, which leaves you short on both bodies and on transport to defend Egypt with.

I mean, if you're not playing with TERR, Wavell starts in Egypt all alone. Even if you do play with them, there's a 50% chance of drawing the Palestine Terr instead of a second Egyptian one, and he can't enter Egypt without a HQ sponsoring him because of foreign Troop commitment


I don't see how you can keep the Italians out of Suez if you do this; which might be ok, if you really think that the extra security you buy France is worth it, but has anyone done more analysis on this?

[brian brian]

Well naturally what you can do with Wavell might depend on what the Italians are doing. If they are deployed strongly in eastern Libya and open the war with an early invasion in the Levant then no, that HQ can't be sent to France.

But believe it or not, there is a school of Italian play that has them play a virtual sitzkrieg in the Mediterranean, including even taking at-start forces out of Libya.

Also a good CW player will have other forces arriving quickly in Egypt, in Nov/Dec 39 even, and may have another solution to pre-empt aggressive early Italian play - their own DOW on Italy.

So overall it's not as hard to move Wavell out of Egypt as you might think.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

But the Italian forces in Egypt are pretty mobile. You always start with that inf division, and they have plenty of 6 moving cruisers that can get to the 4 box anywhere in the Med from La Spezia

I can't declare war on the first impulse anyway, so load that guy up on some cruiser and sail him out in the eastern med; now if I declare war and you don't have at least a ZoC, I have an automatic walk in to Damietta or Port Said, and if it's the latter, I've already closed the canal.

It's practically 0 investment, and if I force the Brits to attack me instead, hey, great. I doubt anything I'd achieve on that surprise impulse is worth the net 19 you've given me to U.S. entry (-12 for your own DOW, and not getting the 7 for my DOW on you.)

And even if you're planning on pulling troops out of Libya, you can withdraw just as well from Tobruk and Bardia, so why not give the Brits a scare? They haven't got any planes anyway down there, and probably won't have the ability to redirect any for some time.

[brian brian]

Ahh but many CW players view that USE swing as worth it, more for a Pearl Harbor style shot at the Italian Transports, though taking away Italy's surprise impulse landing chance is a very good thing also. Success on the port strike can cripple Italian overseas ambitions for up to a year. I happen to agree that the USE concerns are more important, but it is a very common CW decision.

A sustained Italian attack on Egypt is more difficult while the French navy is still on the board, so you are more likely to see an attack on Egypt developing later in 1940. It's not easy for the Axis to operate across the Mediterranean waters in World in Flames against good Allied play, any more than it was in the real war, and it can be rather difficult on the first few turns.

And I didn't say you had to move Wavell to France on the first turn; just arriving in France during the winter is early enough. The Queens could deliver the high quality Sydney MIL to Suez on the 2nd turn, and an Indian INF on the 3rd turn, possibly with South Africans not far behind them. And in most games there are two CW TERRitorial units in the area as well, blocking invasion hexes at least.

Actually it is more difficult for the Italians to move units back to Italy from Tobruk, crossing two sea zones, than it is from Tripoli through one zone, where the Axis have better air cover as well.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

But you can't do that without exposing yourself to a serious amount of risk.


Say the Italians start with their TRS in La Spezia. None of your starting planes in England can reach it, so you've either got to rebase someone to Malta on the first impulse (and you've probably got other demands on your air actions, especially if you're playing with internment and want to save those 2 Polish pilots), or you move the carrier fleet up to the western med/Italian coast to ready the portstrike with your CVP.


Most of those LND bombers only have a naval air factor of one, so even being sure of sinking one TRS is hardly a sure thing, and if you put the carriers in the Med like that.... To hell with it, I'm sortieing everything I've got, declaring war, and going for that chance of hitting your ships in the surprise impulse.


Maybe I'm dated, at least from what I remember, an Italian DOW on the CW at least (sometimes France too, depending on how you think the reaction is going to be, sometimes you try to massage USE by only attacking the CW) on the second Axis impulse was the most common Italian play; be able to take real actions, and get that German money in, make it clear you're going to harass any convoys they're sending through the Med. If you wait till turn#2 to send Wavell in, then there's a good chance you're at war with Italy, and that means that you can either go the long way around, or run the gauntlet. And while it can be dangerous for the Italians to operate in the Med, it can also be dangerous for the Brits too, things in the 0 box are vulnerable, especially if you're not playing with CLiF, with all those garbage scows to absorb X results.


And yeah, it's two sea zones from Tobruk whereas only one from Tripoli, but the Western Med is probably the most allied controlled of the 3 Med sea zones anyway, and you can scrap from the beginning so that all of your Italian transports have 4 movement, so it shouldn't be that big of a deal; IMO, the biggest bonus of trying to pull out from Tripoli itself is that you have the option of going to either the western Med or the eastern med, depending on which is less heavily patrolled.

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

To hell with it, I'm sortieing everything I've got, declaring war, and going for that chance of hitting your ships in the surprise impulse.

That actually is precisely what a lot of CW players do, with CV forces from both Aden and Gibraltar/UK, and perhaps even Hampdens rebased to Corsica. It is a powerful chance to shut down Italy's ability to move troops across the Med, though it is only a chance, not a given. An early CW DOW might also yield Sardinia to them. Or, an Italian DOW and naval sortie might turn the Italian BBs loose right near a surprised Ark Royal. The US Entry system and DOW decisions are a high-stakes affair (particularly in 1939) and every player feels differently about it. Either the Axis or the Allied player can decide to wait for the Mediterranean DOW by the other player, take their lumps, and reap a reward in USE chits.

Personally, I prefer to wait as the Allies, and can decide either way as the Axis. (A surprise impulse landing in Algeria is worth a lot I think).

The Royal Navy is pretty good at controlling the Med when they still have French help in the first winter, and the Axis hasn't yet had time to build up much land-based air. So it is a valid and not-too-difficult option for the British to commit Wavell to France. He can fairly safely return to Egypt via the Cape Route soon enough, and the Germans have to fight more cheap British infantry in northern France. There is not zero risk in the move, no. It is war and you make tough decisions and hopefully employ the best tactics to lower your risk, but it is frequently just not a large risk to try this move. I always pass on taking the initiative for the Allies, saving up for the critical turn of Sep/Oct 1941, but with the initiative (or an Italian player not yet willing to contest the West Med in force on their first move), Wavell can land on the Riviera pretty simply, with mostly an empty TRS at risk for a few impulses, though it won't be without powerful escorts, including French ships to absorb losses.

Perhaps a good counter is for Germany to bluff a France First while the Italians press in the Eastern Med somewhat. Then the CW has some tough, risky choices to make. Or just let the CW double the BEF, sail HQs past SUBs, and grind them up in France anyway.

[Centuur]

It all depends on the set up of the Italians. If they put a large force with an HQ at the Egyptian Border, the CW can't move Wavell into France in the first turn. If they do, they are risking the loss of Egypt.

My Mussolini will attack the CW as soon if defenses in Malta, Egypt or Gibraltar are lacking.

The CW should be a little patient on the movement of Wavell to France. J/F 1940 is early enough for that, since the other CW units can disembark from the North Sea if Wavell is in Marseilles. At that point, there should be at least the Sydney MIL and another infantry type of unit in Egypt. Together with the two TERR and the far eastern fleet moved to Port Said they should be able to keep Egypt under control of the CW.

No risk involved at that time. Of course, if Italy decides to DoW the CW during that time, the situation is different, but, provided the CW has got those three key points garrisoned, let Italy start the war. Why not? Just make sure you throw the French fleet into action as soon as that happens to cut supply lines and start making life miserable for the Italians in the Med.

[Extraneous]

The Commonwealth (CW) has plenty to worry about Great Britain, Gibraltar, Egypt, Malta, France, and Asia.


Italy will either be at war with the CW on the second impulse or not. This effects the CW stance on Gibraltar, Egypt, and Malta.
Wavell needs troops so I use the Queens to embark/debark a MOT directly into the Minor port of Suez.
Remember Italy is a Neutral Major power and can use the Suez canal. You don't want Italy to close the Mediterranean in the east

The CW has a INF in Asia (I would put it in Aden) and that is enough for 1939 and probably 1940.
If Italy Declares War (DoW) then the Queens can embark/debark the INF from Aden to Egypt.


Germany is at war and this effects the CW stance on Great Britain and France.

Its going to take the CW:
4 turns to produce an ARM.
3 turns to produce an MECH or MOT.
2 turns to produce an INF.

So you have a little time to build a BEF if you want

[vicberg]

It takes very little time to get a couple of CW corp into Egypt, and only then if IT sets up for an Egypt attack. With a starting Gun, 3 CW corp and a territorial that starts in Egypt (or a MIL if not playing with Territorials), CW can have 12-13 points in Alexandria and another 7-10 just to the southwest. The quattra depression protects the CW southern flank. If an AT gun starts in Egypt that's placed in the clear hex to the southwest of Alexandria. The AT Gun will prevent a blitz attack because it's worth the same as the IT Armored HQ, and IT has only another MECH which wouldn't count towards the blitz chart. Very difficult for IT to break that line and allows Wavell to leave. Plus there's the matter of keeping IT units in supply, especially if playing with limited overseas supply.

[vicberg]

I'm playing a guy who's played (in his own words) 50-100 WIF games over the last decade plus. He's played all the top guys, people on the "rules" committee and people who win at the WIFCONs.

He has a brutal defense of France (playing without no ZOC on surprise rule). Forget Netherlands for the time being. In Belgium, he puts the 3 Cav in Leige and the 2 corp (worth 9) in Antwerp. Because of ZOC, GE can only move a hex into the Ardennes in the south and take Leige and can mount a single hex attack against Antwerp, which is not a given. If Antwerp holds, he moves CW units into it, France moves into Brussels, the southern Ardennes hex and a clear hex to the southeast of Brussels between Brussels and the Ardennes (only a single hex can attack it). Brussels is protected from 2 hexes by a river. Incredible defensive line from the North Sea down to the Maginot. Almost have to use an o-chit to break it.

The second defensive line has CW in Lille and north of it. French ARM (and possibly a MECH he builds first turn) and AT to the southeast of Lille in the clear hex, the Ardennes hex (forest) and then Maginot. After that comes the Paris line, covered to the southeast by the river and then falls back to the river line north of Paris. Then CW moves back to Brest, which is covered by a city and forest hex (called the CW Redoubt). He piles 3 HQ into France. Keeps as many CW troops as he can afford in France. Once France is Vichy, he doesn't have to worry about foreign troop commitment, so he can pull his HQs out.

It's nasty and worth the effort. Of course, the risk is that CW loses all it's ground troops and is open to an invasion. But if pulled off successfully, it ties up GE for a long, long time, into 41, which starts limiting GE options everywhere else. So yes, Wavell in France is well worth it.

[Centuur]

If the CW has to many troops in France and Belgium, the right reaction of Germany is a Sea Lion. Get you Para and your TRS and Amph to invade the UK. There can't be that many units in the UK at this moment...

The right way to counter all this CW movement into France is to put two good corps and a division unto the German fleet in Kiel. They only have to be in the hex, so the CW has to fear an invasion. If the CW doesn't find you in the North Sea, you are ashore in Britain and the CW is in deep trouble...
Also: aren't there some other parts of the world vulnerable at this moment? The CW can't have a large force everywhere...

[vicberg]

This is a really good point. 2 Corp and a div will present the threat of Sea Lion if CW is pushing troops into France. But if building for a 41 Barb, will this really be a credible threat? At one point he had 1 corp (total) in England in London. Ok, so I can paradrop and invade, but with the massive CW fleet ready to cut off the North sea, only 1 amph and 2 TRS, is that enough? I can land in England, sure. But what then? USE will be massive. The force can be easily cut off and there are STILL CW troops to contend with in France. I would love to have a counter to the CW Redoubt. It's a real pain.

[brian brian]

that all depends on what the CW build. If they keep INF gearing high from the start, they can still defend a lot of places, and they don't need their MECH in France, which is an over-commitment in my opinion. A lot of cheap MIL and INF is not.

[vicberg]

ORIGINAL: Centuur
Also: aren't there some other parts of the world vulnerable at this moment? The CW can't have a large force everywhere...

Where else does CW need to be? A couple of corp from Asia, an AT gun and a couple of territorials can make an IT only attack against Egypt very challenging, especially playing with limited overseas supply. Where else? India? Not really worried about a JP attack in 40 or even early 41.

Perhaps a coordinated JP attack against CW in 40 could make the CW Redoubt something extremely dangerous to do? But that brings US into the war quite early with 2 US entry chits per turn after the JP DOW against CW.