Fighter Frustration - need advice
Moderators: Joel Billings, Tankerace, siRkid
Game setting
Hi, Are all these poor results with settings at Historical?
I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Originally posted by HawaiiFive-O
Why was the F4F-4 able to overcome it's shortcomings to achieve a seven-to-one loss ratio?
Why is this hidden capability not modeled in UV?
]
I'd say it was probably because the Wildcat did not achieve such a figure. at least not within the period covered by UV. It sounds like the website is using "official" USN confirmed victories which were not very accurate.
Sarge,
You raise a good point on scenerio selection , though i dont see how this could affect the data base. Have you seen any consistantly poor Allied air preformances in Sc-13 (i believe....the one that starts mid 43)
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HawaiiFive-O
- Posts: 295
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 10:21 pm
- Location: USA
Mine have been.
The worst I've seen was when I committed the well rested VF-8 squadron (F4F-4s, Morale 92, Fatigue 16, EXP 82) to the defense of Gavigamana. I'd held them back to deliver the coup-de-grace.
A coup-de-grace was delivered alright, but not the way I expected.
I lost 26 F4F-4s and 21 P-39s. IJN losses (including op) 8 A6M2s and 4 A6M3s. VF-8 EXP now 68. Glad to see that the war of attrition now works against the Allies.
Pretty much broke my resistance at Gavigamana.
My P-38s shot up his next raid on Wunpuko, thank goodness for them, but I've only got the two squadrons and am now sitting on my hands waiting for more.
The worst I've seen was when I committed the well rested VF-8 squadron (F4F-4s, Morale 92, Fatigue 16, EXP 82) to the defense of Gavigamana. I'd held them back to deliver the coup-de-grace.
A coup-de-grace was delivered alright, but not the way I expected.
I lost 26 F4F-4s and 21 P-39s. IJN losses (including op) 8 A6M2s and 4 A6M3s. VF-8 EXP now 68. Glad to see that the war of attrition now works against the Allies.
Pretty much broke my resistance at Gavigamana.
My P-38s shot up his next raid on Wunpuko, thank goodness for them, but I've only got the two squadrons and am now sitting on my hands waiting for more.
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HawaiiFive-O
- Posts: 295
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 10:21 pm
- Location: USA
Originally posted by HawaiiFive-O
I'd settle for 1 to 1.
If enough players are finding results that seem too out of wack with 'historical' perception, then it will certainly be looked at. I have not exerienced the consistantly lopsided results being complained about. Either in AI combat, or in my PBEM's
However if enough players are experiencing it, it will be looked at. Hence my question for the Sarge regarding specific scenerios and these odd results. And Mogami's question regarding the diff settings.
Originally posted by Hard Sarge
Hi Mr Frag
during this time frame of the war, the JP pilots flew a vic, and only the leader was a hunter, was a shooter, the other two were there to protect him,
HARD_Sarge
Not entirely true. Yes the lead did point the vic in the direction of combat, but once combat commenced the vic would separate into individual melee.
Von Frag
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HawaiiFive-O
- Posts: 295
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 10:21 pm
- Location: USA
If enough players are finding results that seem too out of wack with 'historical' perception, then it will certainly be looked at. I have not exerienced the consistantly lopsided results being complained about. Either in AI combat, or in my PBEM's
That's good enough for me.
There exists the possibility that I just suck at this game, of course. I'll keep trying different things to see if I can regain parity with the F4F-4.
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LargeSlowTarget
- Posts: 4968
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
What have I triggered here?
Well, first of all: D'oh!!! Cap is right, I wasn't aware that I'm playing at 'very hard', must have messed up in the scenario/preference selection when I fired up that game.
That said, I still maintain my plea for advice, since it wasn't triggered alone by the game I have described in my original post. I have also suffered heavy losses with little to show for in earlier games with 'historical' settings, although they were not that lopsided (7:1 rather than 10:1).
Mr. Frag, I've spied on the other side and there are four Zero daitai with exp 68, 68, 86 and 88 at Rabaul. But I had six squadrons in the 80-90 range, too. Now that being P-39 squadrons, their exp apparently only served to keep their losses relatively low, compared to the slaughter of the P-40 in the exp 60-70 range. But they didn't kill Zeros despite their exp.
On the exp gain, ince I normally do not defend PM, the Zeros have no opposition to fight against and thus shouldn't be able to increase exp by much. I have tried to increase exp of my P-40 by sending them on escort missions against undefended (means no CAP) targets, their exp rose very slowly if at all.
HawaiiFive-0, I tend to agree - well rested low experience Allied pilots lose to tired high experience IJN pilots and training has no effect past 60 exp.
Hard Sarge, I don't think the pilot bug is an issue here. And prior to installing patch 2.3, I made a fresh install of UV and the other 2.x patches, so there shouldn't be any problems with a 'messy' UV.
Now, on the Wildcat vs. Zero debate. From what I have read about warplanes, no plane is just better than others. All of them have their good and their bad sides and a good pilot knows them and uses the plane accordingly. A good pilot in a mediocre plane can win against a mediocre pilot in a good plane.
Yes, the Zero was very maneuverable but only at slow speeds, could climb very well but consequently had bad diving characteristics. Due to its light construction, lack of armor and self-sealing fuel tanks the Zero was very vulnerable. The armament was unbalanced (two small caliber machine guns and two slow-firing cannons) and either lacked punch or accuracy and amount of 'lead in the air'.
The Wildcat on the other hand was a rugged construction (built by Grumman 'ironworks') that still was able to fly and fight after taking hits which would have killed Zeros. It wasn't good at climbing, but had good diving characteristics and thus could decline engagements if high enough to dive away. It was inferior at maneuvering at slow speeds, but superior if it could use high-speed. It's armament of several heavy machine guns combined good rate of fire with heavy punch and could shred the light Japanese aircraft to pieces.
In a 1-to-1 setup, it is said that the Zero usually had a better chance to win because it was more maneuverable. Still the Wildcat would be a tough nut to crack. But as Mr. Frag has quoted: "...a Wildcat becomes a virtual flying kill decal to a Zero, unless he has friends..." and Hard Sarge has observed, too: tactics and teamwork made the difference. A section of two Wildcats using the scissors or the Thach weave maneuvers could protect and mutually support each other. This was further enhanced on the level of divisions formed of two sections - the famous 'finger four' formation. The effect of this teamwork was higher than just the sum of two pieces. The Japanese used three plane 'V-of-Vs' formations which broke apart into a mass of lone wolfs upon contact. They never quite mastered the art of tactical teamwork even when they switched to the 'finger four' in 1944.
The book I can recommend on this issue is "Fire in the Sky. The Air War in the South Pacific." by Eric Bergerud.
That said, I still maintain my plea for advice, since it wasn't triggered alone by the game I have described in my original post. I have also suffered heavy losses with little to show for in earlier games with 'historical' settings, although they were not that lopsided (7:1 rather than 10:1).
Mr. Frag, I've spied on the other side and there are four Zero daitai with exp 68, 68, 86 and 88 at Rabaul. But I had six squadrons in the 80-90 range, too. Now that being P-39 squadrons, their exp apparently only served to keep their losses relatively low, compared to the slaughter of the P-40 in the exp 60-70 range. But they didn't kill Zeros despite their exp.
On the exp gain, ince I normally do not defend PM, the Zeros have no opposition to fight against and thus shouldn't be able to increase exp by much. I have tried to increase exp of my P-40 by sending them on escort missions against undefended (means no CAP) targets, their exp rose very slowly if at all.
HawaiiFive-0, I tend to agree - well rested low experience Allied pilots lose to tired high experience IJN pilots and training has no effect past 60 exp.
Hard Sarge, I don't think the pilot bug is an issue here. And prior to installing patch 2.3, I made a fresh install of UV and the other 2.x patches, so there shouldn't be any problems with a 'messy' UV.
Now, on the Wildcat vs. Zero debate. From what I have read about warplanes, no plane is just better than others. All of them have their good and their bad sides and a good pilot knows them and uses the plane accordingly. A good pilot in a mediocre plane can win against a mediocre pilot in a good plane.
Yes, the Zero was very maneuverable but only at slow speeds, could climb very well but consequently had bad diving characteristics. Due to its light construction, lack of armor and self-sealing fuel tanks the Zero was very vulnerable. The armament was unbalanced (two small caliber machine guns and two slow-firing cannons) and either lacked punch or accuracy and amount of 'lead in the air'.
The Wildcat on the other hand was a rugged construction (built by Grumman 'ironworks') that still was able to fly and fight after taking hits which would have killed Zeros. It wasn't good at climbing, but had good diving characteristics and thus could decline engagements if high enough to dive away. It was inferior at maneuvering at slow speeds, but superior if it could use high-speed. It's armament of several heavy machine guns combined good rate of fire with heavy punch and could shred the light Japanese aircraft to pieces.
In a 1-to-1 setup, it is said that the Zero usually had a better chance to win because it was more maneuverable. Still the Wildcat would be a tough nut to crack. But as Mr. Frag has quoted: "...a Wildcat becomes a virtual flying kill decal to a Zero, unless he has friends..." and Hard Sarge has observed, too: tactics and teamwork made the difference. A section of two Wildcats using the scissors or the Thach weave maneuvers could protect and mutually support each other. This was further enhanced on the level of divisions formed of two sections - the famous 'finger four' formation. The effect of this teamwork was higher than just the sum of two pieces. The Japanese used three plane 'V-of-Vs' formations which broke apart into a mass of lone wolfs upon contact. They never quite mastered the art of tactical teamwork even when they switched to the 'finger four' in 1944.
The book I can recommend on this issue is "Fire in the Sky. The Air War in the South Pacific." by Eric Bergerud.
Originally posted by HawaiiFive-O
That's good enough for me.
There exists the possibility that I just suck at this game, of course. I'll keep trying different things to see if I can regain parity with the F4F-4.
Well i suck too, but dont tell Cappy Gown that. He's been almost unbearable lately...sending me coded msg's asking when i'm going to start attacking and that his troops are bored.
Originally posted by Von_Frag
Not entirely true. Yes the lead did point the vic in the direction of combat, but once combat commenced the vic would separate into individual melee.
Von Frag
true. to expand on that just a little further, a properly lead and executed Shotai should never be described as a "Vic" because while the numbers and 'shape' were similar, in reality the Japanese formation was a more open and far more flexible formation vs the rigid and tightly packed "Vic" utilized by the British. Calling or describing a Shotai a "Vic" usually will lead to images of the British model and the problems experienced with it
The weakness of the Shotai was that it required all three pilots to be very good, or else it could easily loose it's cohesiveness. The Japanese first felt that the unit could still be successfully employed if at least the leader was experienced (the two wingmen being rookies) but this proved false and eventually the easier 2 man Finger four type formation was adopted.
OMG! Very Hard??? 1 zero can take on 3 CV's and win on Very Hard 
Your P-39D's even with 100% skills and 0% Fatigue will still die. Use them for ground attack and use real fighters for playing with the enemy (hopefully no one is going to start debating the P-39's being useless, the P-400 falls into the same catagory). The P-40E is in better shape here due to aircraft design, it could actually take a few hits in the rear and still fly.
I'd really like to see these *historical* results of F4F's doing well against A6M's. I'm more then willing to be convinced, but I can't find a single source anywhere *including* the USA Navy historical infomation that implies they were better they folks are seeing in 2.30. Convince me instead of debating me with no links to sources
I am well aware how important a factor pilot skill is and that a plane with lower performance abilities can quite simply destroy better planes with poorer pilots. It is one of the reasons I like UV, as it maintains track of individual pilot skill independant of the airframe performance numbers. This holds true to a certain level then becomes meaningless as the number of aircraft increases. Even an ace is going to get shot down by 4 moderately skilled pilots.
History does not paint the USN into great light until Nov '43. Even the USN admits they learned a lot of hard lessons prior to that time. The saving grace was that Japan could not take advantage of these shortcomings because of the dreadfull loss at Midway.
When you remove Midway from the table, Japan suddenly is able to take advantage of this until the United States production facilities kick into gear at which time the United States comes back with their might and squashes Japan like the little bug they were.
I just don't understand why folks expect Japan to fold like a little sheep from turn 1 on the game. Japan DID hurt the United States. That is the reality of WW II. They lost completely once the United States converted to wartime production, just as Germany went down the tubes, but during the opening years of WW II, they did quite fine until the men & materials ran out.
Care to read what the US Navy thought of itself:
http://www.history.navy.mil/download/pacific.pdf
Your P-39D's even with 100% skills and 0% Fatigue will still die. Use them for ground attack and use real fighters for playing with the enemy (hopefully no one is going to start debating the P-39's being useless, the P-400 falls into the same catagory). The P-40E is in better shape here due to aircraft design, it could actually take a few hits in the rear and still fly.
I'd really like to see these *historical* results of F4F's doing well against A6M's. I'm more then willing to be convinced, but I can't find a single source anywhere *including* the USA Navy historical infomation that implies they were better they folks are seeing in 2.30. Convince me instead of debating me with no links to sources
I am well aware how important a factor pilot skill is and that a plane with lower performance abilities can quite simply destroy better planes with poorer pilots. It is one of the reasons I like UV, as it maintains track of individual pilot skill independant of the airframe performance numbers. This holds true to a certain level then becomes meaningless as the number of aircraft increases. Even an ace is going to get shot down by 4 moderately skilled pilots.
History does not paint the USN into great light until Nov '43. Even the USN admits they learned a lot of hard lessons prior to that time. The saving grace was that Japan could not take advantage of these shortcomings because of the dreadfull loss at Midway.
When you remove Midway from the table, Japan suddenly is able to take advantage of this until the United States production facilities kick into gear at which time the United States comes back with their might and squashes Japan like the little bug they were.
I just don't understand why folks expect Japan to fold like a little sheep from turn 1 on the game. Japan DID hurt the United States. That is the reality of WW II. They lost completely once the United States converted to wartime production, just as Germany went down the tubes, but during the opening years of WW II, they did quite fine until the men & materials ran out.
Care to read what the US Navy thought of itself:
http://www.history.navy.mil/download/pacific.pdf
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CapAndGown
- Posts: 3078
- Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Virginia, USA
Originally posted by Nikademus
Well i suck too, but dont tell Cappy Gown that. He's been almost unbearable lately...sending me coded msg's asking when i'm going to start attacking and that his troops are bored.
You haven't seen ubearable yet. This is merely irritating. Just wait until I Midway your butt. Then you'll see unbearable.
:pJust for the heck of it:
I moved all starting ships in 2.30 together, built the best 15 ship CV TF's I could, let all the planes rest, then let them at each other.
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/03/42
Weather: Partly Cloudy
Air attack on TF at 34,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 25
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 16
SBD Dauntless x 36
TBD Devastator x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 16 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 13 damaged
TBD Devastator x 7 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 6 damaged
ENS H.Kanno of EII-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2
LCDR W. Hamilton of VB-2 is KILLED
Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1
CA Myoko
CV Zuikaku
CA Furutaka
DD Shiratsuyu, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 34,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 4
SBD Dauntless x 36
TBD Devastator x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 5 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 11 damaged
TBD Devastator x 4 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 2 damaged
LCDR W. Burch of VS-5 is KILLED
Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Shoho, on fire
CA Myoko
CV Zuikaku
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 35,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 25
D3A Val x 43
B5N Kate x 46
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 18
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 9 destroyed
D3A Val x 4 destroyed
D3A Val x 11 damaged
B5N Kate x 24 destroyed
B5N Kate x 17 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 damaged
LT E. O'Hare of VF-3 is credited with kill number 2
LT K. Okajima of EII-1 Daitai is KILLED
Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 7, on fire
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 4, on fire
CA Astoria, Torpedo hits 1
CA Chester
CA New Orleans
CA Portland
CL Hobart
DD Sims, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Walke, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Russell
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 34,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 8
SBD Dauntless x 12
TBD Devastator x 6
no losses
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 1 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 4 damaged
TBD Devastator x 1 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 5 damaged
WO C.Kaneko of EIII-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2
Japanese Ships
CA Myoko
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 34,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 9
SBD Dauntless x 18
no losses
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 5 damaged
PO2 S.Hirata of EII-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2
Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 35,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
D3A Val x 21
B5N Kate x 8
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val x 5 destroyed
D3A Val x 11 damaged
B5N Kate x 2 destroyed
B5N Kate x 5 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
ENS W. Eder of VF-3 is credited with kill number 2
LT T. Ema of EII-2 Daitai bails out and is CAPTURED
Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA New Orleans
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just don't see what you are stating to be even remotely true, the USN with their weak starting forces of half squadrons send Japan packing.
I'm going to repeat this test a couple dozen times and merge the results together. The attachment is the remains on both sides. FoW is off so these are true results (not muddied by FoW).
I moved all starting ships in 2.30 together, built the best 15 ship CV TF's I could, let all the planes rest, then let them at each other.
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/03/42
Weather: Partly Cloudy
Air attack on TF at 34,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 25
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 16
SBD Dauntless x 36
TBD Devastator x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 16 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 13 damaged
TBD Devastator x 7 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 6 damaged
ENS H.Kanno of EII-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2
LCDR W. Hamilton of VB-2 is KILLED
Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1
CA Myoko
CV Zuikaku
CA Furutaka
DD Shiratsuyu, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 34,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 4
SBD Dauntless x 36
TBD Devastator x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 5 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 11 damaged
TBD Devastator x 4 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 2 damaged
LCDR W. Burch of VS-5 is KILLED
Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Shoho, on fire
CA Myoko
CV Zuikaku
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 35,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 25
D3A Val x 43
B5N Kate x 46
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 18
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 9 destroyed
D3A Val x 4 destroyed
D3A Val x 11 damaged
B5N Kate x 24 destroyed
B5N Kate x 17 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 damaged
LT E. O'Hare of VF-3 is credited with kill number 2
LT K. Okajima of EII-1 Daitai is KILLED
Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 7, on fire
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 4, on fire
CA Astoria, Torpedo hits 1
CA Chester
CA New Orleans
CA Portland
CL Hobart
DD Sims, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Walke, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Russell
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 34,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 8
SBD Dauntless x 12
TBD Devastator x 6
no losses
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 1 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 4 damaged
TBD Devastator x 1 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 5 damaged
WO C.Kaneko of EIII-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2
Japanese Ships
CA Myoko
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 34,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 9
SBD Dauntless x 18
no losses
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 5 damaged
PO2 S.Hirata of EII-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2
Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 35,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
D3A Val x 21
B5N Kate x 8
Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val x 5 destroyed
D3A Val x 11 damaged
B5N Kate x 2 destroyed
B5N Kate x 5 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
ENS W. Eder of VF-3 is credited with kill number 2
LT T. Ema of EII-2 Daitai bails out and is CAPTURED
Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA New Orleans
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just don't see what you are stating to be even remotely true, the USN with their weak starting forces of half squadrons send Japan packing.
I'm going to repeat this test a couple dozen times and merge the results together. The attachment is the remains on both sides. FoW is off so these are true results (not muddied by FoW).
- Attachments
-
- cv.jpg (65.37 KiB) Viewed 385 times
Originally posted by Mr.Frag
Just for the heck of it:
I moved all starting ships in 2.30 together, built the best 15 ship CV TF's I could, let all the planes rest, then let them at each other.
( cutting to get to the point )
I just don't see what you are stating to be even remotely true, the USN with their weak starting forces of half squadrons send Japan packing.
I'm going to repeat this test a couple dozen times and merge the results together. The attachment is the remains on both sides. FoW is off so these are true results (not muddied by FoW).
Frag -
What you've shown is typical of what I've been seeing in v2.30 too. Both sides can do a fair amount of damage and it tends to be evenly spread if the forces are reasonably evenly matched.
As far as all those folks who are lamenting things at PM during 80 Zero raids - all I can say is that my lousy P-39's, P-400's and P40's keep on knocking out a few bombers every raid, and the raids have never come close to shutting down the airbase. And at this stage of the game ( May/June/July ) I don't care about shooting down Zeros - I just want to keep PM running and in my hands.
But then I keep on pulling out fighter squadrens whenever I've got the chance, let them rest up and build up, then put them back at my convenience. So they are building experience and the Japanese are having more and more trouble scrounging up bombers.
The funny thing is that there are a couple of fighter squadrens that lose moral much faster than others. So they get to travel south more often. (Hmmm - maybe it's just a plot by the pilots to get more leave?)
The strangest case of this, however, is the scout group on the Chicago. No matter how much I rest them, they stay at around a max of 25-29 morale. All the other scout groups go up rapidly on the other cruisers. ( It's too bad that I can't change leaders. )
Dave Baranyi
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Hard Sarge
- Posts: 22145
- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: garfield hts ohio usa
- Contact:
Hi Nick/Mogami
in my games it is on histotical
for Scen 13, my Cats have rested for 3 weeks, and went into battle with 99 morale, slaughtered 3 raids that came in, but for what ever reason, all the raids were Kate/Kate@Val, no zeros
the 39 is doing fine now, it takes a hammering, but it hammers back, getting a few Zeros now and then, but most times it breaks though and gets to the bombers, in my 14 game, they wouldn't get to the bombers at all
I did reinstall the game, and some of the oddball, AI things I was seeing, are not showing up, but so far in the this game, the 38 is acting like the Cat was, low morale, rest it and get it back up, but as soon as you come back out and fly, it drops in a hurry
what I was kind of thinking, in 14, the Cats start at between 56-62 morale, take to sea and put up cap, it is already dropping into the 40's, fly cap for 3 or 4 days, you can be down into the 20's, dead meat, it seems like from 13, if the unit can get up to high morale, it does not drop, but in the 60's it will fall fast
well for the kill ratio, 7-1 is shaky, but they are adding in all there kills, not just kills vs the Zero, and for the most part, any plane that didn't go down in combat, went down to OP, get into a fight, have your wing half shot off, come back and crash on landing, that was not a combat loss, it was lost on landing, so a OP loss
Mr Frag
well, nobody has said the bombers can't hit a target
(I took most of the slot and NG in under 4 months in my last game, with out fighters)
I still don't follow you, nobody is saying the F4F4 was a "better" plane, but that it fought the Zero and was not slaughtered by it, and depending on the numbers, fought it pretty well, nothing like the Hellcat, F4u or P-38 did, but it fought it well when it was almost all we had
on the other side, how much do you know about flying or combat flying (now best I can do is my online flying, offline flying and reading) but you seem to miss a lot of points about flying and how planes react
the Zero could out turn the Wildcat, could out climb the Wildcat, but you also, got what is called corner speed, when you really want to fight the plane to how it handles best, you fly at your corner speed, well the Zero's corner speed was slow, the Wildcat was higher, at the higher speed, the Zero could not turn as well, above the Cat's corner speed, the Zero will have a lot of trouble turning at all
it may of been the best slow plane of the war, but above cruise speed for most US planes, and it was a dog, keep your speed up, and the Zero was in trouble, once they learned not to get slow, the battles changed
also, you can get into what is now called yo-yo's, high and low, a high yo-yo can make a fast nonturning plane out turn a slower good turning plane, using speed to make the turn, Low yo-yo, a slower plane can gain speed and cut inside of a turn
also, if you can roll faster, you can tie up a better turning plane
plus on a side note, the JP pilots and GE pilots, flew there planes proper, the US did not, the US liked to skid there plane into and out of turns, that is not the proper way to do it, but it cuts the corner nicely, even more so vs someone who is not expecting it
not something you want to do though out a fight, but if done at the right time, can make a big difference
time for work
HARD_Sarge
in my games it is on histotical
for Scen 13, my Cats have rested for 3 weeks, and went into battle with 99 morale, slaughtered 3 raids that came in, but for what ever reason, all the raids were Kate/Kate@Val, no zeros
the 39 is doing fine now, it takes a hammering, but it hammers back, getting a few Zeros now and then, but most times it breaks though and gets to the bombers, in my 14 game, they wouldn't get to the bombers at all
I did reinstall the game, and some of the oddball, AI things I was seeing, are not showing up, but so far in the this game, the 38 is acting like the Cat was, low morale, rest it and get it back up, but as soon as you come back out and fly, it drops in a hurry
what I was kind of thinking, in 14, the Cats start at between 56-62 morale, take to sea and put up cap, it is already dropping into the 40's, fly cap for 3 or 4 days, you can be down into the 20's, dead meat, it seems like from 13, if the unit can get up to high morale, it does not drop, but in the 60's it will fall fast
well for the kill ratio, 7-1 is shaky, but they are adding in all there kills, not just kills vs the Zero, and for the most part, any plane that didn't go down in combat, went down to OP, get into a fight, have your wing half shot off, come back and crash on landing, that was not a combat loss, it was lost on landing, so a OP loss
Mr Frag
well, nobody has said the bombers can't hit a target
(I took most of the slot and NG in under 4 months in my last game, with out fighters)
I still don't follow you, nobody is saying the F4F4 was a "better" plane, but that it fought the Zero and was not slaughtered by it, and depending on the numbers, fought it pretty well, nothing like the Hellcat, F4u or P-38 did, but it fought it well when it was almost all we had
on the other side, how much do you know about flying or combat flying (now best I can do is my online flying, offline flying and reading) but you seem to miss a lot of points about flying and how planes react
the Zero could out turn the Wildcat, could out climb the Wildcat, but you also, got what is called corner speed, when you really want to fight the plane to how it handles best, you fly at your corner speed, well the Zero's corner speed was slow, the Wildcat was higher, at the higher speed, the Zero could not turn as well, above the Cat's corner speed, the Zero will have a lot of trouble turning at all
it may of been the best slow plane of the war, but above cruise speed for most US planes, and it was a dog, keep your speed up, and the Zero was in trouble, once they learned not to get slow, the battles changed
also, you can get into what is now called yo-yo's, high and low, a high yo-yo can make a fast nonturning plane out turn a slower good turning plane, using speed to make the turn, Low yo-yo, a slower plane can gain speed and cut inside of a turn
also, if you can roll faster, you can tie up a better turning plane
plus on a side note, the JP pilots and GE pilots, flew there planes proper, the US did not, the US liked to skid there plane into and out of turns, that is not the proper way to do it, but it cuts the corner nicely, even more so vs someone who is not expecting it
not something you want to do though out a fight, but if done at the right time, can make a big difference
time for work
HARD_Sarge
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Poindexter
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2002 1:37 am
- Location: Smelly Possum, Miss.
No escort?
"For Scen 13, my Cats have rested for 3 weeks, and went into battle with 99 morale, slaughtered 3 raids that came in, but for what ever reason, all the raids were Kate/Kate@Val, no zeros"
Interesting.
Perhaps since you rested your fighters for that length of time, the Japanese decided they didn't need to send escort fighters over believing that your airfield was nullified(?) Just a thought.
Interesting.
Perhaps since you rested your fighters for that length of time, the Japanese decided they didn't need to send escort fighters over believing that your airfield was nullified(?) Just a thought.
"Nothing is over until we say it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"
Wildacats...
Mr. Frag,
I don't think it's possible to find a campaign where Zeros EVER had a positive kill ratio vs. Wildcats.
The deal with the Zero was that it was a lot better than what people THOUGHT the Japanese had. People were shocked that they had a reasonably competitive fighter.
And it dominated Dutch Brewster Buffaloes, the worst pilots the British Empire had to offer in the first months of the war (all the good and well trained British pilots were in Europe, of course), and P-39s that were pretty helpless above 10,000 feet.
At NO point in the war did Zeros EVER dominate USN Wildcats. Keep in mind it was several months into the war till they even really encountered each other.
USN pilots were far better trained at working together, and the Wildcat had superior durability and firepower and dive ability. As the war showed, maneuverability really didn't matter much. All the Zero had was range (and a considerable advantage that was.)
I don't think it's possible to find a campaign where Zeros EVER had a positive kill ratio vs. Wildcats.
The deal with the Zero was that it was a lot better than what people THOUGHT the Japanese had. People were shocked that they had a reasonably competitive fighter.
And it dominated Dutch Brewster Buffaloes, the worst pilots the British Empire had to offer in the first months of the war (all the good and well trained British pilots were in Europe, of course), and P-39s that were pretty helpless above 10,000 feet.
At NO point in the war did Zeros EVER dominate USN Wildcats. Keep in mind it was several months into the war till they even really encountered each other.
USN pilots were far better trained at working together, and the Wildcat had superior durability and firepower and dive ability. As the war showed, maneuverability really didn't matter much. All the Zero had was range (and a considerable advantage that was.)
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von Murrin
- Posts: 1611
- Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: That from which there is no escape.
My results...
As of 06/01/42 with 2.30 and AI set to historical.
EDIT: I'm playing as the Allies.
EDIT: I'm playing as the Allies.
- Attachments
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I give approximately two fifths of a !#$% at any given time!
Re: My results...
Originally posted by von Murrin
As of 06/01/42 with 2.30 and AI set to historical.
EDIT: I'm playing as the Allies.
Which suggests that you are probably a fairly happy player at this point in the game...
Dave Baranyi
At NO point in the war did Zeros EVER dominate USN Wildcats. Keep in mind it was several months into the war till they even really encountered each other.
And Midway happened
Remove Midway from the equation and suddenly Japan no longer fights at a 2 to 1 disadvantage. Why is that so tough to see?
After a strange twist of fate, the entire remainder of the time period in UV was fought at a huge disadvantage.
Allied CV 36 vs Japan CV 24. Fairly simple math there. Wonder why USN beat Japan eventually, they had bigger CV's.
Sarge,
on the other side, how much do you know about flying or combat flying (now best I can do is my online flying, offline flying and reading) but you seem to miss a lot of points about flying and how planes react
I was a pilot till I went the medical route when I had a stroke and got grounded somewhat permamently. I would venture to say that makes me somewhat aware of how aircraft fly.
Try to not believe everything you read about how great the good guys were and how bad the bad guys were. History tends to be written by the victor to paint them in their own light.
Performance curves on aircraft do not change based on who flies the plane. The difference between a skilled pilot is that he knows his aircraft's performance curves and his targets and applies the right flight envelope to put his target in *his* aircrafts best spot on the graph while denying the same to his opponent.