Books arrived, let me say they are incredible as books go

[Centuur]

Now, I understand that if you have to pay a large amount on taxes and shipping, that people are not happy about this. However, I again say this topic is about the quality of the books, not if you want them or not (or have to pay a huge amount for to get them on your doorstep).

I'm getting very, very tired of those people here, who haven't seen the books, commenting about not wanting them. There is another topic somewhere here in which people can adress that fact...

So, I'm going to shout now:

PLEASE REFRAIN ANY TALKS ABOUT NOT WANTING THE BOOKS IN THIS TOPIC. USE THE OTHER ONE FOR THIS. GET OUT OF THIS TOPIC WHICH IS ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE BOOKS. YOU ARE OFF TOPIC HERE! [:@][:@][:@] [:-][:-][:-]

[DSWargamer]

It's amusing, how if I state something matter of factly I have to be wrong, but if they state something matter of factly, it has to be right.

I gave up on that style of debate back in grade 3, but I suppose that method is ok with some of you boys here.

The more interesting observation is the fake prices on the invoice. You do realize the prices were faked right? It sounds like some of you really thought they were genuine. The prices you paid were displayed on your computer screen. Everything else is the business of the shipping process and your nation of current destination.

I personally think it was reasonably generous of them to put on a bogus value on the parcel.
A friend of mine, recently took an item of his own creation to exhibit in the US from here in Canada.
The item is worth 10 MILLION bucks (no you read that correctly). He had to go through an incredible process of insuring it just to carry it across the border. You see, he doesn't have the several tens of thousands of bucks on him to ensure it for it's real worth.

People need to seriously wrap their heads around a truth, the problem of shipping the books to you is YOUR problem, it isn't the problem entirely of Slitherine Group. It is true they want to be able to sell to as many people as possible, and just saying that sounds like I am explaining that water is wet.

Fabricating justifications for ditching the books, seems to forget that a major aspect of this product IS the books. When I first saw this on sale, I was partly 'awesome it really exists' referring to the program. But mainly it was 'holy crap, look at the books it comes with' meaning it was going to be so much more than just another computer game I likely really didn't need (which sure seems to apply to too many of my games).

If your wall is too high to climb over where shipping costs are concerned, don't try and spin it as the books lack worth and value. It is what it is, it's YOUR inability to buy them, not their inability to be worth it.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
The more interesting observation is the fake prices on the invoice. You do realize the prices were faked right? It sounds like some of you really thought they were genuine. The prices you paid were displayed on your computer screen. Everything else is the business of the shipping process and your nation of current destination.

I personally think it was reasonably generous of them to put on a bogus value on the parcel.

I don't know if the prices are bogus or not, and frankly don't care much.

But I don't think you're doing Matrix any big favors by making this kind of claim, because if they are bogus, tax and customs authorities might not be very pleased...

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

It's amusing, how if I state something matter of factly I have to be wrong, but if they state something matter of factly, it has to be right.

I gave up on that style of debate back in grade 3, but I suppose that method is ok with some of you boys here.

The more interesting observation is the fake prices on the invoice. You do realize the prices were faked right? It sounds like some of you really thought they were genuine. The prices you paid were displayed on your computer screen. Everything else is the business of the shipping process and your nation of current destination.

I personally think it was reasonably generous of them to put on a bogus value on the parcel.
A friend of mine, recently took an item of his own creation to exhibit in the US from here in Canada.
The item is worth 10 MILLION bucks (no you read that correctly). He had to go through an incredible process of insuring it just to carry it across the border. You see, he doesn't have the several tens of thousands of bucks on him to ensure it for it's real worth.

People need to seriously wrap their heads around a truth, the problem of shipping the books to you is YOUR problem, it isn't the problem entirely of Slitherine Group. It is true they want to be able to sell to as many people as possible, and just saying that sounds like I am explaining that water is wet.

Fabricating justifications for ditching the books, seems to forget that a major aspect of this product IS the books. When I first saw this on sale, I was partly 'awesome it really exists' referring to the program. But mainly it was 'holy crap, look at the books it comes with' meaning it was going to be so much more than just another computer game I likely really didn't need (which sure seems to apply to too many of my games).

If your wall is too high to climb over where shipping costs are concerned, don't try and spin it as the books lack worth and value. It is what it is, it's YOUR inability to buy them, not their inability to be worth it.

It's amusing, how if I state something matter of factly I have to be wrong, but if they state something matter of factly, it has to be right.

I gave up on that style of debate back in grade 3, but I suppose that method is ok with some of you boys here.

The more interesting observation is the fake prices on the invoice. You do realize the prices were faked right? It sounds like some of you really thought they were genuine. The prices you paid were displayed on your computer screen. Everything else is the business of the shipping process and your nation of current destination.

I personally think it was reasonably generous of them to put on a bogus value on the parcel.
A friend of mine, recently took an item of his own creation to exhibit in the US from here in Canada.
The item is worth 10 MILLION bucks (no you read that correctly). He had to go through an incredible process of insuring it just to carry it across the border. You see, he doesn't have the several tens of thousands of bucks on him to ensure it for it's real worth.

People need to seriously wrap their heads around a truth, the problem of shipping the books to you is YOUR problem, it isn't the problem entirely of Slitherine Group. It is true they want to be able to sell to as many people as possible, and just saying that sounds like I am explaining that water is wet.

Fabricating justifications for ditching the books, seems to forget that a major aspect of this product IS the books. When I first saw this on sale, I was partly 'awesome it really exists' referring to the program. But mainly it was 'holy crap, look at the books it comes with' meaning it was going to be so much more than just another computer game I likely really didn't need (which sure seems to apply to too many of my games).

If your wall is too high to climb over where shipping costs are concerned, don't try and spin it as the books lack worth and value. It is what it is, it's YOUR inability to buy them, not their inability to be worth it.

_____________________________

+1

I plan on using the books for a long time. Yes I have read every page and most likely will do so again. I have used both PDFs and hard bound books for research purposes and from my experience (which may be different from everyone else here so it is just my single opinion and not a blanket statement that should apply equally to everyone) it is much easier to look things up in a physical book than a PDF. Why? To do a PDF search (which I agree is great) you normally need something specific to search for. May times in looking things up this works great. Other times it does not. If you need to find information that you are not sure of what to search for or you want to find related information to the search that is under a differnt area, then skimming a printed book is a lot faster (again this is just my experience) than trying to figure what search terms I need to put into a pdf.

So both printed books and pdfs have their benefits and detractions. This does NOT mean one is the 'one and true path to rightness' and everyone else that likes the other path should be burned at the stake.

If given a choice, I would have bought a physical copy in any case even if it costed me $50 more. I would have been willing to pay extra for shipping. I actually want the books and will use them often. I printed out the entire War in the Pacific manual and I STILL use the manula on a regular basis. Simply because I can find the information a lot quicker than in the pdf. Plus I do not have to get out of the game (not much of an issue with WiF), have my laptop up, iPad, etc. just on the off chance I MIGHT need to check the manual. When I play, the physical manual is right there. AllI need to do is grab it, get the information I need, and then put it back down until the next time. Nothing to turn on/off, no Alt-Tab, etc. No need to scroll the pdf or type in search terms, etc. Very clean and fast. If you find using a pdf gives you the same flexibility as that, then I am very gald you can do that. Are you wrong because you using your method versus mine? Of cource not.

So I have no clue why LiquidSky is so hung up on this topic, but I can say that many of his assumptions do not apply to me. So he and I will just need to disagree and hopefully (very hopefully) we can just move on from here [:)]

[Dabrion]

As for the books... happens to be the most expensive door stopper my garage door has seen for a long time.. (not cheap!!)

Can we move on and talk about the software licensed to you (core of the product)?

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Now, I understand that if you have to pay a large amount on taxes and shipping, that people are not happy about this. However, I again say this topic is about the quality of the books, not if you want them or not (or have to pay a huge amount for to get them on your doorstep).

I'm getting very, very tired of those people here, who haven't seen the books, commenting about not wanting them. There is another topic somewhere here in which people can adress that fact...

So, I'm going to shout now:

PLEASE REFRAIN ANY TALKS ABOUT NOT WANTING THE BOOKS IN THIS TOPIC. USE THE OTHER ONE FOR THIS. GET OUT OF THIS TOPIC WHICH IS ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE BOOKS. YOU ARE OFF TOPIC HERE! [:@][:@][:@] [:-][:-][:-]

Well said Centuur, first time I have seen this kind of emotion out of you Peter, I like it, good post. Now for Liquid Sky I said before he was on the verge of trolling, he has gone over that line warning people about the books, that is none of his business and in fact he is now trolling and agitating or whatever you want to call it and if Matrix had the courage to make me a moderator I would sove this problem quickly and prudently.

To me at least there is a few others that are on the verge of trolling but I do not feel they have crossed that line, they are unhappy about the cost of shipping and well they should be it seems to me to be pretty rough on people who purchased this game and do not live in the US.

He has a right to post and complain about this cost and that cost, but IMO does not have the right to persuade or to suggest people not to purchase the game because of some books or getting value for you money gibberish, where is the legal department of Matrix on this, how about showing some fortitude against this errrrrr poster.

Now about the books, a poster got their books and happened to say that the books were well done and that was what the post was about, I have the books and I agree they are well done, of all the people posting about not needing the books, I need them less than you do as I have been beta testing for 2 years and I know the game. There are some rules that are still hazy to me and I know a pdf file will straighten that out.

I personaly have a hard problem reading a bright screen in an uncomfortable chair so I do enjoy reading the rules when I am away from the computer but that is just me. I do not give one lick if Matrix changes the way they market the game [download digital only without books] it is their company they run the risk of doing it their way. But they have the right to do it their way. And you the buyer have certain rights and that is, do not buy the game pure and simple.

Bo

[Hotschi]

The manuals which were shipped with this game, are the best one I've seen so far for a computer game. There's video tutorials, there's text tutorials, there's pfd files, there's printed books. All in one. Excellent, and worth the money I have spent getting it all. Name me one other game which comes with such a complete package. There's something included for every taste.

No company can please everyone, since every person has his or her own preferences, that's a no brainer. If there are people around who don't like this package, it's regrettable, but does not deduct anything from me being happy with the whole purchase.

By the way, adressing posters here as "boys" adds nothing to the discussion. It can be taken as arrogant, belittling, or insulting - anything but friendly.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

The manuals which were shipped with this game, are the best one I've seen so far for a computer game. There's video tutorials, there's text tutorials, there's pfd files, there's printed books. All in one. Excellent, and worth the money I have spent getting it all. Name me one other game which comes with such a complete package. There's something included for every taste.

No company can please everyone, since every person has his or her own preferences, that's a no brainer. If there are people around who don't like this package, it's regrettable, but does not deduct anything from me being happy with the whole purchase.

By the way, adressing posters here as "boys" adds nothing to the discussion. It can be taken as arrogant, belittling, or insulting - anything but friendly.

Well said Hotschi, Austria ok, are you of age where you could have seen Franz Klammer come down that mountain in the downhill medal run to win the gold medal before his countrymen in 1976 at Innsbruck, he personally carried Austria on his back, the most incredible downhill I have ever seen, it can be viewed on You Tube.

Bo

[Hotschi]

Yes I am of that age, although back then I was a 8 year old boy - which I am no longer. Back then, we kids had "Being-Franz-Klammer" games in winter, and "Being-Niki-Lauda" games the other seasons. Ah, childhood memories... [:D]

[Dabrion]

If you enjoy high quality physical products go to ADG and buy the board game!

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

If you enjoy high quality physical products go to ADG and buy the board game!

Dont have to, we have the board game it is called MWIF [&o]

Bo

[Dabrion]

MWiF is a computer game, modeling the board game WiF. I think you are quite aware of that, what are trying to archive here?

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

MWiF is a computer game, modeling the board game WiF. I think you are quite aware of that, what are trying to archive here?

I am an American you are German, maybe a different meaning in Germany, explain archive to this dummy or your meaning of it. You have been very negative please dont push it. I am trying to be pleasant but I can play your game too. Enough is enough.

Bo

[Dabrion]

meant to write "achieve"

I have no idea why you try to threaten me If you want to play forum gestapo go ahead.. you have me half smiling..

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

meant to write "achieve"

I have no idea why you try to threaten me If you want to play forum gestapo go ahead.. you have me half smiling..

Achieve would have sufficed, learn how to spell. You should know about the Gestapo thats for sure, I dont threaten anyone and never have here for 6 years, I am just sick and tired of the trolling okay!

Your comment in Bounce combat post was correct and that is what you ought to stick to, helping posters.

Bo

[Dabrion]

Wow, that escalated quickly .. bro

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

If you enjoy high quality physical products go to ADG and buy the board game!

I have done so, but did not receive any hard cover books from ADG.

[DSWargamer]

I am assuming the 'boys' complaint was aimed at me

You need to understand, I call any male my age or less a boy. That means 50s and under.

Hey if it helps, you can call me a girl I won't hold it against you.

No thrill being called an old woman.

Was looking at the front of the books today. I wonder how many zoomed right past the Forwards?
There are some comments in them, that actually make for significant reading.
Rules as Written, and Rules as Coded, and for all real purposes, the same thing. I wonder how many have made a big fuss over them being different, when the only places that they ARE different means almost nothing.

The first two volumes, basically Vol 2 exists mainly as making it just one book would make it pretty damned heavy eh. Volume 2 starts with Chapter 8. So looking at the contents in Vol 1, everything past Chapter 7 is in the other book. Rules as Coded, is essentially the exact same game as the 65 page rules book. But they went and enjoyed the fact they had full colour and lots of space to work with, and weren't trying to cram the manual into a box along with counters and maps.

Even if you owned the entire board game, and wanted nothing to do with the computer game, this product is a great deal simply for the benefit of the much nicer written experience.

And it isn't like it is a unique experience. ASL is a board game, and the rules manual is a separate purchase. Yep, it is about as expensive to by the base ASL manual, as it is to buy this game, and the ASL manual is just a manual, no maps no counters.

Part of me is no doubt going to lament I didn't get the maps.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

I am assuming the 'boys' complaint was aimed at me

You need to understand, I call any male my age or less a boy. That means 50s and under.

Hey if it helps, you can call me a girl I won't hold it against you.

No thrill being called an old woman.

Was looking at the front of the books today. I wonder how many zoomed right past the Forwards?
There are some comments in them, that actually make for significant reading.
Rules as Written, and Rules as Coded, and for all real purposes, the same thing. I wonder how many have made a big fuss over them being different, when the only places that they ARE different means almost nothing.

The first two volumes, basically Vol 2 exists mainly as making it just one book would make it pretty damned heavy eh. Volume 2 starts with Chapter 8. So looking at the contents in Vol 1, everything past Chapter 7 is in the other book. Rules as Coded, is essentially the exact same game as the 65 page rules book. But they went and enjoyed the fact they had full colour and lots of space to work with, and weren't trying to cram the manual into a box along with counters and maps.

Even if you owned the entire board game, and wanted nothing to do with the computer game, this product is a great deal simply for the benefit of the much nicer written experience.

And it isn't like it is a unique experience. ASL is a board game, and the rules manual is a separate purchase. Yep, it is about as expensive to by the base ASL manual, as it is to buy this game, and the ASL manual is just a manual, no maps no counters.

Part of me is no doubt going to lament I didn't get the maps.

The actual break point between the volumes is 8.7.1 and 8.7.2. The former are informational forms. The latter forms are used for making decisions.

RAC is more than RAW because a ton of clarifications and corrections from Harry have been embedded in the appropriate sections. They are in an italicized font. The MWIF deviations are also italicized; both are labelled as such so you can tell which is which.

[DSWargamer]

Was I was being brief RAC is so much more deluxe than RAW