Impressions of Matrix World In Flames (MWIF)

[monkla]

Since we are talking about our impressions of Matrix World in Flames. I would like to offer my two cents worth and also explain why.

I find myself quite disappointment with this product that has come out. I have attempted to play the game and it didn't take too long before I ran into multiple bugs. I peruse the tech help section and see great listings of bugs being reported. This I don't understand. You see, when I factor in postage costs, this game has cost me $160. That is more, in fact, way more than any other computer game that I have ever bought. It is also more expensive than 90% of the board games that I have bought. I would like to think for that amount of money that I could expect a product that was relatively bug free. None of the other computer games I have purchased from other companies are like this. I wonder why, therefore, that we as a gaming community seem so ready to accept a product, which to my mind, is manifestly unready for release. It is not my intention when I buy a game, that I am diving into the game as a game tester rather than one who just wants to play a fun, smooth running game.

I also don't understand why there was a need, in this day and age, to deny the customer base the right to purchase the game via digital downloads.

I have purchased games from Matrix in the past. This included Empire in Arms. Another product which left me with the same feeling - that I am paying my money for the right to be a play tester.

It is for the above reasons that I find myself in the position that I have no intention to purchase any other Matrix games in the future.

I understand that there are those our there that will disagree with my point of view. But I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a not insignificant number who felt similarly.

[DSWargamer]

I will respond.

Sure you can buy games cheaper. You can buy lots of things with wild swings in price differences though. It's not relevant.

This game's board game is 300 bucks, comes with a common paper manual, and room eating maps. No protection from cats or dust either.

Regarding bugs, I have never once seen a wargame that had no bugs, never not once. Most of the bugs disappear at break neck speed. Ok it sucks to play a launch game, and be one of those that discovers the bugs. I sympathize with that.
But there is little reason to expect this game to be bug free. I don't expect it of any game this complex. I don't expect it of simple computer wargames either.

That is one of the reasons board games still draw serious cash. And remember, this computer release INCLUDING the unfortunate shipping expense, is half the price of the board game. Not that board games are without flaw(s), but you don't need to be a programmer to affect solutions.

Some games go on to be the focus of massively loyal fan bases, and yet, even a decade later, can suffer design gaffes. Steel Panthers, easily a king of computer wargaming, but the Long Campaign AI is worthless all the same. Close Combat, a major favourite, but pathing is STILL something that bugs people. In contrast, ASL rules the squad tactical board gaming world, but, a complete set is in the realm of thousands of dollars.

I have purchased games from Slitherine Group knowing full well, I might wait a little longer, might achieve a few saved dollars. But eventually, if I actually HAVE to start counting pennies, I likely need a cheaper hobby entirely. I bought Advanced Tactics Gold recently. I had reasons to think a sale was very close, and it turns out it was. I might have saved a few bucks. But, if the cost of a burger was enough to kill my ability to buy that download, then chances are I am a lot more likely unable to afford the game at all.

It comes down to how much do you seriously want the product?
If you can't seriously say you genuinely want the product, then just accept it and move on.
I don't understand the notion, that not liking how one game here was sold, means you plan to walk out on ever buying anything else here. Especially when Slitherine Group is a publishing partnership representing more individual developer companies than I can easily count.

Ditching buying ADG's game on sale here through this site, published via Slitherine Group, why should for instance that make Lordz Studios suffer? Why punish 2by3 or SSG just because you were not happy with how AGEOD is marketed here? Those are merely examples of names I know of by the way.

I have bought games here before, and I have felt later that my purchase was impulsive, and I shouldn't have bought it because 'I' didn't need the game. It was a case of 'I' might not really get around to playing it. It had nothing to do with the game being any good to anyone else.

But I do come back to Slitherine Group for a variety of reasons. Ever bought a game, and then had to go back begging to be allowed to reinstall it because you had run out of installs? I am not sure how Ubisoft even manages to continue to sell anything good or otherwise. I like that John Tiller has made Panzer Campaigns available for tablet. But the only reason I bought them, is they don't employ his otherwise unacceptable drm scheme he applies to his PC titles.
And those games are just as capable of being buggy. It's whether or not the bugs get addressed that matters.

If you walk out on the publisher here, really, all you are doing is denying yourself a potential for you next good game.

Chances are I will be seeing spring before I am up to speed and underway with my copy of World in Flames here. Which will suck I guess. But, it will just mean I will miss a few of the bugs I suppose.
But I will have had the chance to dive into the design, to study it, and of course read the books.
Which I have said, were a damn good deal considering the real game is twice the price and not nearly as deluxe.

Mentioning you can buy games for very low prices, doesn't really count for much here.
Battle Academy cost me 40 bucks on launch. It's been patched a few times since. It has quite a few expansions. I think if I sum total the cost, that makes it a very expensive sum total. I also think it is one of the best computer wargames since Steel Panthers first arrived.
My total purchase for Panzer Corps also really adds up. Also been patched a few times. Also considered one of the best wargames made in years. Also has a few design gaffes all the same.
It's rare to ever see a computer wargame without any manner of design glitch. I can't think of any myself.

Inasmuch as WiF is concerned, I am more disappointed with some of the fans and observers than with the game

[bo]

ORIGINAL: monkla

Since we are talking about our impressions of Matrix World in Flames. I would like to offer my two cents worth and also explain why.

I find myself quite disappointment with this product that has come out. I have attempted to play the game and it didn't take too long before I ran into multiple bugs. I peruse the tech help section and see great listings of bugs being reported. This I don't understand. You see, when I factor in postage costs, this game has cost me $160. That is more, in fact, way more than any other computer game that I have ever bought. It is also more expensive than 90% of the board games that I have bought. I would like to think for that amount of money that I could expect a product that was relatively bug free. None of the other computer games I have purchased from other companies are like this. I wonder why, therefore, that we as a gaming community seem so ready to accept a product, which to my mind, is manifestly unready for release. It is not my intention when I buy a game, that I am diving into the game as a game tester rather than one who just wants to play a fun, smooth running game.

I also don't understand why there was a need, in this day and age, to deny the customer base the right to purchase the game via digital downloads.

I have purchased games from Matrix in the past. This included Empire in Arms. Another product which left me with the same feeling - that I am paying my money for the right to be a play tester.

It is for the above reasons that I find myself in the position that I have no intention to purchase any other Matrix games in the future.

I understand that there are those our there that will disagree with my point of view. But I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a not insignificant number who felt similarly.

I do not think anyone will totally disagree with your point of view just maybe some parts of it.

Digital download- maybe Matrix should have offered the digital download seperate, no argument there, but that is their choice not ours, they run the risk of people not buying the game. They have been marketing products for many years and I am sure they have the feel of the war gaming industry and market.

Multiple bugs- Myself and others have tested the game for several years, up to net play was put in the game played very well, I believe that net play and the main game clash for the programmer causing some problems, fix a bug in netplay it might come back to haunt the main game.

I will not comment on whether the game should have been released or not that is above my pay grade, one positive thing that came out of this is we now have hundreds of play testers as compared to SO VERY FEW [pun]

Postage- No argument there, I trully feel for players that have purchased the game from outside of the US, some postal rates are overwhelming.

You being a Beta tester- we thank you, we could use some help.

Buying again from Matrix- to each his own.

I have no knowledge of this one way or another whether this happened or not. Whether Steve was the first choice or whether other renowned programmers turned this program down for fear of not being able to complete it properly, only Matrix and Steve know that one.

It is here and it will stay here and Steve will get everything working properly given time.
I believe Steve was first choice because not only is he a credited programmer, more important he loves and understands the game better than any other programmer around. Love of the game means as long as he remains healthy he will be here for many more years to assist everyone with this wonderful complex game.

My conclusion-Just maybe this game should have never been designed for a computer, way too many rules to implement properly, if Steve had not taken on this enormous task THERE WOULD BE NO WORLD IN FLAMES on these Matrix posts for you and others to complain about, and wouldn't that be a sorry state of affairs.

Bo

[brian brian]

we've kicked around a certain idea before on some of this. porting a 20th century board game into a computer version is in one sense working backwards. wargames on paper were not designed to be played on computers. they were designed to bring in a certain amount of historical realism while still having a certain level of playability. every design of such a game is the culmination of that essential trade-off, which was made with no view to using computer technology, only paper technology. forcing such a design structure onto a computer retro-actively is very not simple, and there are other concerns. but recreating the design trade-offs made to game out a war using paper maps and cardboard counters is more difficult than simply designing a game for the computer screen from scratch.

to me it seems quite possibly unclear to anyone, perhaps even the people that do these things and invest real sums of their own money and personal time into the effort, if there will be sufficient return on that investment from the marketplace of potential customers for these games originally designed 30 years ago now. if the resources available (a team of a dozen or dozens of software engineers) to create a new entry in the Halo series were available to us customers, I'm sure a super-slick perfect implementation of all World in Flames rules ever dreamed up with cutting-edge hardware implementation across all devices, voice activated movement orders and fully operational everything (perfect online multiplayer switchable to offline or email or any combination whenever you wished) would be simple enough to produce. but those resources aren't available for a very small niche product. if only Bill Gates had gotten hooked on hex-based paper wargames as a hobby...

and even in the realm of converting old board games to new computer games, I think the level of detail should really be considered. I'm sure if Hasbro would allow it, a "perfect" bug-free online/offline/AI version of Afrika Corps could be created fairly quickly by any computer gaming company. but I'm not sure a market is there to reward such an effort.

So I don't think a computer World in Flames should be compared to computer wargames designed from scratch. They are just two completely different things. I have never tried the computer implementation of Empire in Arms but I think that is probably one of the few possible comparisons here. From what I have read about computer EiA, the new computer WiF is quite a bit more stable and easy to use. And World in Flames has a fair amount more rules systems and detail to the game than Empire in Arms, in my understanding.

And going back to the resources available for this project, I think releasing the game where it stands now was absolutely the right decision. Volunteer beta testers can only accomplish so much - they are volunteers after all, and as you scale up the size of the testing pool, more resources have to go into simply managing the pool of testers = slowing down the development process, not speeding it up. It is unfortunate that paying customers are discovering bugs, sure, but I think it is the best way forward to improve the game into the easiest playing game possible to create.

There are also two very different potential customers for this game. Those who have previously played World in Flames on paper, and those who haven't, and a game product made for sale to the public has to cater to both sets of customers. it looks to me like MWiF has done an incredible job of preparing the game and the necessary game materials for people brand new to WiF, perhaps at a slight expense of more features and perfection, right now, for the experienced players. The best way to satisfy previous players, is to bring the game out and keep the process moving forward. Hundreds of players moving towards thousands of players will find more ways to improve the game than a few dozen will. The best way to satisfy brand new players who have never seen World in Flames before, would be to continue to work on polishing the game and adding features and perfection quite reasonably expected by game customers in the 21st century, a process that would look to take several more years. A decision had to be made and a trade-off had to be selected, just as in the design process of any wargame.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: monkla

Since we are talking about our impressions of Matrix World in Flames. I would like to offer my two cents worth and also explain why.

I find myself quite disappointment with this product that has come out. I have attempted to play the game and it didn't take too long before I ran into multiple bugs. I peruse the tech help section and see great listings of bugs being reported. This I don't understand. You see, when I factor in postage costs, this game has cost me $160. That is more, in fact, way more than any other computer game that I have ever bought. It is also more expensive than 90% of the board games that I have bought. I would like to think for that amount of money that I could expect a product that was relatively bug free. None of the other computer games I have purchased from other companies are like this. I wonder why, therefore, that we as a gaming community seem so ready to accept a product, which to my mind, is manifestly unready for release. It is not my intention when I buy a game, that I am diving into the game as a game tester rather than one who just wants to play a fun, smooth running game.

I also don't understand why there was a need, in this day and age, to deny the customer base the right to purchase the game via digital downloads.

I have purchased games from Matrix in the past. This included Empire in Arms. Another product which left me with the same feeling - that I am paying my money for the right to be a play tester.

It is for the above reasons that I find myself in the position that I have no intention to purchase any other Matrix games in the future.

I understand that there are those our there that will disagree with my point of view. But I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a not insignificant number who felt similarly.

Your previous post on this forum was that you were unable to download updates. Is that still the case?

I have not seen any bug reports from you in my email (unless they are coming in under a different name).

If you can download updates, then I suggest that you continue to do so, and read the What's New file that is revised with every Update. Perhaps the difficulty that you encountered will be resolved in the future (if it hasn't already).

As for the items reported in the Tech Support forum, many are about bugs in the MWIF program (I am not denying that), but many others are not. They are sometimes specific to the idiosyncrasies of the player's computer system, a misunderstanding of the rules, or due to some other event outside the program's ability to control.

[Dabrion]

ORIGINAL: monkla

Since we are talking about our impressions of Matrix World in Flames. I would like to offer my two cents worth and also explain why.

I find myself quite disappointment with this product that has come out. I have attempted to play the game and it didn't take too long before I ran into multiple bugs. I peruse the tech help section and see great listings of bugs being reported. This I don't understand. You see, when I factor in postage costs, this game has cost me $160. That is more, in fact, way more than any other computer game that I have ever bought. It is also more expensive than 90% of the board games that I have bought. I would like to think for that amount of money that I could expect a product that was relatively bug free. None of the other computer games I have purchased from other companies are like this. I wonder why, therefore, that we as a gaming community seem so ready to accept a product, which to my mind, is manifestly unready for release. It is not my intention when I buy a game, that I am diving into the game as a game tester rather than one who just wants to play a fun, smooth running game.

I also don't understand why there was a need, in this day and age, to deny the customer base the right to purchase the game via digital downloads.

I have purchased games from Matrix in the past. This included Empire in Arms. Another product which left me with the same feeling - that I am paying my money for the right to be a play tester.

It is for the above reasons that I find myself in the position that I have no intention to purchase any other Matrix games in the future.

I understand that there are those our there that will disagree with my point of view. But I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a not insignificant number who felt similarly.

+1

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

ORIGINAL: monkla

Since we are talking about our impressions of Matrix World in Flames. I would like to offer my two cents worth and also explain why.

I find myself quite disappointment with this product that has come out. I have attempted to play the game and it didn't take too long before I ran into multiple bugs. I peruse the tech help section and see great listings of bugs being reported. This I don't understand. You see, when I factor in postage costs, this game has cost me $160. That is more, in fact, way more than any other computer game that I have ever bought. It is also more expensive than 90% of the board games that I have bought. I would like to think for that amount of money that I could expect a product that was relatively bug free. None of the other computer games I have purchased from other companies are like this. I wonder why, therefore, that we as a gaming community seem so ready to accept a product, which to my mind, is manifestly unready for release. It is not my intention when I buy a game, that I am diving into the game as a game tester rather than one who just wants to play a fun, smooth running game.

I also don't understand why there was a need, in this day and age, to deny the customer base the right to purchase the game via digital downloads.

I have purchased games from Matrix in the past. This included Empire in Arms. Another product which left me with the same feeling - that I am paying my money for the right to be a play tester.

It is for the above reasons that I find myself in the position that I have no intention to purchase any other Matrix games in the future.

I understand that there are those our there that will disagree with my point of view. But I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a not insignificant number who felt similarly.

+1

I can understand that you think this way. I have to respect both your opinions regarding this. However, I give you the following question:

1. Matrix announced that Netplay wasn't bugfree and also stated that not all optional rules are in the game at this moment. This could have given you the idea that things might not be good enough to live up to your expectations.
2. Matrix is as a company entitled to set the conditions how to get the game.

So why did you buy it, knowing these two things? Why didn't you wait?

I'll give you the answer: you wanted this game, because you've been waiting for so long to get your hands on this. So gentlemen: either you live with this for the moment and help us fix this monster, or you put it into a computer folder, follow the forums and wait until you think it is playable...

That's how I think about these (and I quote a somewhat strange tank commander out of an even stranger WW II movie, which I like a lot, since it is a very funny one...) "negative waves"...

[AxelNL]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

ORIGINAL: monkla

Since we are talking about our impressions of Matrix World in Flames. I would like to offer my two cents worth and also explain why.

I find myself quite disappointment with this product that has come out. I have attempted to play the game and it didn't take too long before I ran into multiple bugs. I peruse the tech help section and see great listings of bugs being reported. This I don't understand. You see, when I factor in postage costs, this game has cost me $160. That is more, in fact, way more than any other computer game that I have ever bought. It is also more expensive than 90% of the board games that I have bought. I would like to think for that amount of money that I could expect a product that was relatively bug free. None of the other computer games I have purchased from other companies are like this. I wonder why, therefore, that we as a gaming community seem so ready to accept a product, which to my mind, is manifestly unready for release. It is not my intention when I buy a game, that I am diving into the game as a game tester rather than one who just wants to play a fun, smooth running game.

I also don't understand why there was a need, in this day and age, to deny the customer base the right to purchase the game via digital downloads.

I have purchased games from Matrix in the past. This included Empire in Arms. Another product which left me with the same feeling - that I am paying my money for the right to be a play tester.

It is for the above reasons that I find myself in the position that I have no intention to purchase any other Matrix games in the future.

I understand that there are those our there that will disagree with my point of view. But I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a not insignificant number who felt similarly.

+1

I can understand that you think this way. I have to respect both your opinions regarding this. However, I give you the following question:

1. Matrix announced that Netplay wasn't bugfree and also stated that not all optional rules are in the game at this moment. This could have given you the idea that things might not be good enough to live up to your expectations.
2. Matrix is as a company entitled to set the conditions how to get the game.

So why did you buy it, knowing these two things? Why didn't you wait?

I'll give you the answer: you wanted this game, because you've been waiting for so long to get your hands on this. So gentlemen: either you live with this for the moment and help us fix this monster, or you put it into a computer folder, follow the forums and wait until you think it is playable...

That's how I think about these (and I quote a somewhat strange tank commander out of an even stranger WW II movie, which I like a lot, since it is a very funny one...) "negative waves"...

+1

And might I add that this discussion was civilized and an example for earlier threads

[BeastieDog]

ORIGINAL: monkla

Since we are talking about our impressions of Matrix World in Flames. I would like to offer my two cents worth and also explain why.

I find myself quite disappointment with this product that has come out. I have attempted to play the game and it didn't take too long before I ran into multiple bugs. I peruse the tech help section and see great listings of bugs being reported. This I don't understand. You see, when I factor in postage costs, this game has cost me $160. That is more, in fact, way more than any other computer game that I have ever bought. It is also more expensive than 90% of the board games that I have bought. I would like to think for that amount of money that I could expect a product that was relatively bug free. None of the other computer games I have purchased from other companies are like this. I wonder why, therefore, that we as a gaming community seem so ready to accept a product, which to my mind, is manifestly unready for release. It is not my intention when I buy a game, that I am diving into the game as a game tester rather than one who just wants to play a fun, smooth running game.

I also don't understand why there was a need, in this day and age, to deny the customer base the right to purchase the game via digital downloads.

I have purchased games from Matrix in the past. This included Empire in Arms. Another product which left me with the same feeling - that I am paying my money for the right to be a play tester.

It is for the above reasons that I find myself in the position that I have no intention to purchase any other Matrix games in the future.

I understand that there are those our there that will disagree with my point of view. But I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a not insignificant number who felt similarly.

This game has not been out a month yet. How many complex wargames come out of the box bug free? I've been playing WitP and WitP-AE for several years and I remember numerous "the game is BORKED" threads on its forum. Yet YEARS later the game is still played, patched, modded and enjoyed by many. If you find bugs report them. Give the developer a chance to fix it. The board game has stood the test of time (and has changed since the 1980s) and MWiF probably will become a classic too.

[Dabrion]

Let me correct that answer for my case:
I want a World in Flames on the computer, and I came to the conclusion that MWiF is not the the one I want. If for example the Tutorial Videos would have been available for public consumption, I would have gladly skipped the purchase! I also think that this software left the realm of "fixable".


I had no access to the kind of information you refer to. I even tried to inform myself here on the forum to no avail. So you must have a blurred perception about that, have you been involved into the development for long? Do you perhaps have other sources? I was lead to believe the game is 97% RAW7 compliant, among other things. That number doesn't seem right given the list of units and options missing.. There is a long list of bugs, errors and Ui/Ux shortcomings; and I am sure both of the above posters know about all/most of them, given how involved they are in helping out in the "Tech Forum".

It is just a sad thing that this is the officially licensed version.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

ORIGINAL: monkla

Since we are talking about our impressions of Matrix World in Flames. I would like to offer my two cents worth and also explain why.

I find myself quite disappointment with this product that has come out. I have attempted to play the game and it didn't take too long before I ran into multiple bugs. I peruse the tech help section and see great listings of bugs being reported. This I don't understand. You see, when I factor in postage costs, this game has cost me $160. That is more, in fact, way more than any other computer game that I have ever bought. It is also more expensive than 90% of the board games that I have bought. I would like to think for that amount of money that I could expect a product that was relatively bug free. None of the other computer games I have purchased from other companies are like this. I wonder why, therefore, that we as a gaming community seem so ready to accept a product, which to my mind, is manifestly unready for release. It is not my intention when I buy a game, that I am diving into the game as a game tester rather than one who just wants to play a fun, smooth running game.

I also don't understand why there was a need, in this day and age, to deny the customer base the right to purchase the game via digital downloads.

I have purchased games from Matrix in the past. This included Empire in Arms. Another product which left me with the same feeling - that I am paying my money for the right to be a play tester.

It is for the above reasons that I find myself in the position that I have no intention to purchase any other Matrix games in the future.

I understand that there are those our there that will disagree with my point of view. But I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a not insignificant number who felt similarly.

+1

I can understand that you think this way. I have to respect both your opinions regarding this. However, I give you the following question:

1. Matrix announced that Netplay wasn't bugfree and also stated that not all optional rules are in the game at this moment. This could have given you the idea that things might not be good enough to live up to your expectations.
2. Matrix is as a company entitled to set the conditions how to get the game.

So why did you buy it, knowing these two things? Why didn't you wait?

I'll give you the answer: you wanted this game, because you've been waiting for so long to get your hands on this. So gentlemen: either you live with this for the moment and help us fix this monster, or you put it into a computer folder, follow the forums and wait until you think it is playable...

That's how I think about these (and I quote a somewhat strange tank commander out of an even stranger WW II movie, which I like a lot, since it is a very funny one...) "negative waves"...

Well said Centuur, but I need some clarification here about the word trolling, I have heard about it before, could someone please explain it to me, and what it means.

Bo

[lomyrin]

Since the game works well enough to produce several AAR's, it would seem plausible that the bugs are not all that many and that the UI works well. There is a great deal of information in the books that undoubtedly would eliminate many error or bug reports if the poster had read them. Unfortunately there is a rather steep learning curve that must be worked through before one can play this game proficiently. Very likely the persons producing the AAR's have passed the learning curve and so do not find all that many problems in the play.

[Dabrion]

From the "Rules, Policies, and Disclaimers", enumeration 5.)

"No Trolling. Trolling is whenever someone is clearly, deliberately posting in a manner for the purpose of angering and/or insulting the other participants of the message board. Trolling could be directed towards one user or a group of users. Trolling DOES NOT encourage further discussion; it only encourages personal attacks and will not be tolerated."

hth

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

From the "Rules, Policies, and Disclaimers", enumeration 5.)

"No Trolling. Trolling is whenever someone is clearly, deliberately posting in a manner for the purpose of angering and/or insulting the other participants of the message board. Trolling could be directed towards one user or a group of users. Trolling DOES NOT encourage further discussion; it only encourages personal attacks and will not be tolerated."

hth

Thank you I appreciate that Quote it clears up many things in my mind.

Bo

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

It is just a sad thing that this is the officially licensed version.

As opposed to the unofficial unlicensed version?

Where is that available?

[alexvand]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

It is just a sad thing that this is the officially licensed version.

As opposed to the unofficial unlicensed version?

Where is that available?

It's called Vassal.

I've tried to play games with Vassal, but it doesn't enforce the rules at all, it just gives you the map and counters to play with and you have to enforce the rules.

Not quite what I was looking for. MWiF is what I wanted and I am enjoying it immensely.

[paulderynck]

Yes I am familiar with Vassal. Especially the Version 7.00 module.

And I too, think MWiF is better.

[DSWargamer]

Vassal, it's a tool used to play a board game over an electronic communication option ie on a computer on the internet against a distant opponent.

Which is basically what most computer wargames can be said to be, as so many of them look like they were made to look like board games. People laugh at the low tech graphics of our board game looking wargames, and wonder, why do they have such old looking graphics. It's because we like them that way.

The thing is, Vassal is basically best described as plain unbuttered bread. Yeah you can eat it, but it does kinda suck.

Now some computer wargames try very hard, but often they end up best being described as a cake with the wrong ingredients. A dry cake with an inch of lousy frosting isn't going to impress anyone if they are used to better.

Computer WiF is still basically a board game on a computer, but it simply tastes a lot nicer.
Sure it isn't perfect, and frankly if you want awesome, you're going to need the 9x21 maps and play the game on them and use the hardcover books as deluxe rules and maybe employ the program as a great bonus tool.

Vassal, because I suppose some don't mind dry plain unbuttered bread.

Ideally though, I wish they made more computer wargames closer to being what they could have been, ideal tools, and less games meant to be played solo against you guess it an idiot opponent

But hey, it's a product, and you can't fault a company trying to make the most cash doing what they desire to do for the product.

I keep telling myself, maybe I should knuckle under and master VASL, the offshoot of Vassal made for ASL. But somehow, playing that awesome board game on a computer just seems to lack something for me. It's not the same.

Board games work, because they are designed to work in a physical realm. You can look down, and see the whole map. You don't require zoom controls. You don't need mini navigation maps. You don't need to explain pull down menus and other assorted mouse controls. And you don't need a host of explanations for various functions. The thing with board games, is you actually MUST read the manual to play the game, because until you learn the game, you have nothing.
It's why I can talk about the details of the design of some board games at length, because I had to read them and memorize them.

The day will simply never come when I actually have all the design aspects of a computer wargame memorized, as so much of the design is not even available to examine. You click on a unit, you get a shaded zone of where it can get to. The game never needs to explain HOW the unit was able to get to any of the locations though.

Making a program to mimic a board game of this magnitude, well it must have been a real special hell trying to make the little things of a board game make sense in a program. And so many thing needed in a program, well the original board game simply would have never needed to care.

[Empire101]

At last its here!!!

I went straight to the shop, but immediately baulked at the whooping £27 shipping costs!!!

So I read this thread, and seeing how my old mucker Warspite wrote about it, I'm diving in, hoping it will in some way bring back the heady days of my youth!![8|]

Joking aside, I am going to enjoy trolling through, and making the same old mistakes......Warspite, look out, I'll be wanting a campaign game soon!!

I just can't wait!!!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Empire101

At last its here!!!

I went straight to the shop, but immediately baulked at the whooping £27 shipping costs!!!

So I read this thread, and seeing how my old mucker Warspite wrote about it, I'm diving in, hoping it will in some way bring back the heady days of my youth!![8|]

Joking aside, I am going to enjoy trolling through, and making the same old mistakes......Warspite, look out, I'll be wanting a campaign game soon!!

I just can't wait!!!

warspite1

Where the hell have you and your scrawny little boat been Empire? Good to see you back anyway.

Yes, once net play is up and running will be pleased to take you on. As you can see from the AAR, you won't have too much trouble [;)]