COMMS EMCON and COMINT

[Pergite!]

I think you are comparing chalk to cheese, or in this case RWR and dedicated ESM/ELINT suites.
I am all for "design for effect" but the basic physics should be handled right in order to produce realistic ranges and sensor capabilities.

[bsq]

RWR = ESM (more or less)

ELINT is different

[ComDev]

The fight is ON!

Here are some screenshots from the Radar Calc MS/Excel sheets I've used to balance out the radar model. It should give some clues about the input parameters and also the model's complexity. Note that stats from public sources are in black, my wilda$$ guessimations are in red. Lot of comments here and there. And yes, we only have one operating mode per radar set, which is the most typical operating mode.

Since the Command sensor code is written in Visual Basic, we use the _exact_same_ code in both the simulator and the above MS/Excel spreadsheet. Pretty neat huh!

The 1980-2015+ database contains 1838 (finished) radars and they've all been balanced out like this. Yes, that was a insane job. The 1950-1979 database has a load of earlier sets extinct by 1980. The database editor has the same VB sensor code as the sim and the MS/Excel spreadsheet, and thus also does a bunch of sample calcs in the editor itself just to make sure the input params aren't out of whack.

WARNING! If you have information on these sets that does not come from public sources, please please please do NOT post that info here (for obvious reasons). Only public info, period.

[ComDev]

More radar sets:

[ComDev]

There are 678 ESM/RWR systems in the database. Here are some range estimations for some ESM sets against five typical radar sets. Again, black stats are from public sources, red are my wilda$$ guesses. And as for radars, this was a big job as well.

And as you can see, high-end ESM/ELINT sets produce some pretty ridiculous range estimates against powerful radars hehe.

[bsq]

Couldn't possibly comment [;)] so will this do for you [8D]

Oh and don't worry about excessive ranges, I am sure in years to come 'aliens' with RWR's will come here (Planet Earth) to see what all the noise is about

[smudge56]

My head has exploded [&:]

[ComDev]

Yeah Command is actually pretty complex under the hood [:D][:D][:D][:D] So guess what we've learned from this thread is that we haven't been good enough at showing off all the neat stuff the simulator actually has. Will try to post more as time allows.

Have to finish a whole bunch of high-priority database requests and also finish coding the new Speed/Altitude window and Waypoint Orders first.

[smudge56]

[&:] ok im going to lie down now[:)]

[bsq]

Do you use a straight power based calculation for max detection range (when looking at the game engine) moderated of course by radar horizon or do you use some form of detection range capping based either on PRI or possible/probable scope limited range.

I guess what I am basically asking is if I have 2 units within each others RF horizon, will they detect each other solely based upon the power vs rcs calculation or is it mitigated by anything.

[ComDev]

ORIGINAL: bsq

Do you use a straight power based calculation for max detection range (when looking at the game engine) moderated of course by radar horizon or do you use some form of detection range capping based either on PRI or possible/probable scope limited range.

I guess what I am basically asking is if I have 2 units within each others RF horizon, will they detect each other solely based upon the power vs rcs calculation or is it mitigated by anything.

Yeah we use range capping (see Max Rng column) to simulate PRF cutoff and scope limitations [8D]

[bsq]

Ok, one more then. If the radar is part of a weapon system (and I am thinking now more of ship and land based systems where there is a dedicated TA radar) do you model the TA radar to have significantly more range than the FCR and then do you model the FCR to have a range that allows detection (and possible shots) beyond optimum of the missile?

So if I flew a U2 at altitude could the Tall King/Odd Group 'see' it way beyond what the Square Pair can 'see' it and then as it is a slow and big target would the radar allow for a max range shot (as opposed to an ideal range shot) once the Square Pair did detect it.

Sorry this takes this thread further OT, but the whole way you are modeling these is completely 'awesome', especially as you did this all from open source and guesses. [:D][:D][:D]

[ComDev]

Yes we do [8D]

[Pergite!]

People that complain about the pricing of this military grade simulation software obviously have no idea or appreciation of what's under the hood. Fabulous work, and thanks for sharing the spreadsheets.

[ExMachina]

So far (in v1.01 [X(]), CMANO has already delivered more quality, breadth and depth than any other war game that I have knowledge of.

The best part, is I know that this is just the beginning! [:)][:)][:)]

[Tomcat84]

ORIGINAL: emsoy

and also finish coding the new Speed/Altitude window and Waypoint Orders first.

i love it when you say stuff like that [:D]

[smudge56]

My head is still hurting need to lie down again[;)]

[sneekyzeke]

When just considering power in the radar/ESM range equation a radar with a effective range of 100km (against a 1 sq m target) could be detected by ESM on over 500 times its radar range(probably alot more).

1.5 times max radar range is a more realistic figure IRL, if I remember correctly.

[El Savior]

Anything knew about ESM capabilities of surface ships? Using build 460 and I tested with Arley Burke class and Russian Kara class. Arley Burke is radar on and Kara radars off. First detection is always made by Arley Burke and few seconds later Kara pick up ESM signals. Air radar signals are not picked up by Kara at all, only after getting inside Arley Burke's surface radar detection range detection is made.

I made similar test with Russian Tu-95 Bear and E-2 Hawkey. This time Tu-95 Bear picks up ESM signals before E-2 detect it by radar. This seems correct, but I'm wondering should surface ships pick up ESM before they are lighted by radar. Thanks!

[ComDev]

Okay sorry about the delays guys, but here are some ECM vs radar examples. As you can see it is pretty complex. Black stats come from declass sources, red stats are my guessimations.

The effects assume the target radar antenna points directly at the jammer beam. Sidelobe jamming (which Command also simulates) has less effect.

Thanks!