Hairy Asian Experiences - GreyJoy (J) vs. Q-Ball (A)

[Crackaces]

they die like flies every time you engagé the allied navy (especially in DBB where the allied flak is tremendously effective).

I think the new scenarios updated with the last official patch also correct the flak ratings?

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I'd still be throwing Kamikazes into the mix here, GreyJoy. You're fastidiously ignoring this very capable weapons system at heavy cost to your other branches of service.

Also, keep the big picture in mind. It's March 1944 and he's not even taken Timor? He's waaaayyyy behind schedule. You're doing what you're supposed to.

Agree Chicken. But it's too early to convert too many sentais to Kamikaze. Remember that it's a one way trip: once converted they cannot do anything else...
And in march 1944 i simply do not have enough sentais to spare. Fighters Sentais are needed to guard my bases (especailly now that B29s, with their huge range, are arriving on the scene).
Those sentais that are not needed in the front lines are training pilots like mad and God knows how i need trained pilots now.

I only have 2 Oscar Sentais converted to Kami at the moment. But cannot really spare more.
In 10 days i should be able to finally field the first 5 Sentais of Peggy-T with trained pilots in NavT.... this should give the Navy a bit of breath ...hopefully

[GreyJoy]

March 8, 9, 10 1944

After the battle of the 7th, QBall got aggressive and move all his CVs next to Bima (South of Makassar), clearly looking for my CVs...
Thanks God my platforms moved away towards Batavia (also avoiding all those pesky subs !), out of range.
The Allies launched a strike against my shippings at makassar, finding a small CAP of 40 N1K2s and Tojos.
We downed 56 among Hellcats and SDBs, losing just 10 Georges, but 10 xAPs, 2 AOs and some PBs got sunk....[:o]

At the same time the allied APAs retired from Roti... and one of my midjet subs got a field day, placing 2 torps into an LSI[:D][:D][:D][:D]

Roti got conquered the very same day by the allied invasion force (no time to send there anything Pax, and we do not do night bombing so my Nells are now used ONLY for Naval search duties)

Pantar was conquered the following day after a huge bombardment

Now the allied CVs got back to Darwin, while mine reached Singapore to rest a bit and reload torps, planes and fuel.

My Last CV arrived at Kobe, while all my damaged ships reached the assigned shipyards for repairs.

So we've lost 4 CVEs, 4 CVLs and 2 CVs in the last month...heavy losses but my fighting force is still able to compete.

Timor is now completely lost and circled, but we're succesfully extracting also the 38th Div from Lautem... which is real good! Only 1 Division will be left back at Koepang... the rest has been succesfully evacuated[:D] Now the second line is ready.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

they die like flies every time you engagé the allied navy (especially in DBB where the allied flak is tremendously effective).

I think the new scenarios updated with the last official patch also correct the flak ratings?

I've tried the new files in my other game and, after 3 months of gameplay, we switched back to the old DBB files. The a/c new values are too favourable for Japan and I won't propose them to Brad.
But I haven't seen any evidence that the allied flak is too effective compared to RL in the old DBB... in fact the allied flak SHOULD be deadly as it is right now (and I mean before the new files).
Is there any comprehensive note of the modifications made by JWE to flak in the new files?

[GreyJoy]

March 11, 1944

KB safely reaches Singapore.
We refilled all our air groups with planes and pilots. Will give Shokaku a couple of days of repair time (need to lower some
Sys damage points before taking the waters once again).

CV Ikoma will wait for the Kongo and the Amagi to repair at Kobe before sailing for the DEI.

I think in 1 month i'll be able to get the KB in strength to be able to face the allied DS once again.

In the meanwhile the allied CVs remain at Darwin.

The second defensive line is now ready. He'll need quite an effort to penetrate towards Mindanao.

No evidence of anything moving in the pacific. The Mariannas are ready. The Bonis are getting ready too. Now time to prep for Formosa and Okinawa

From Ramree Is. the allied army is moving east. The 55th Division is waiting for them at the rivercrossing

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

I only have 2 Oscar Sentais converted to Kami at the moment. But cannot really spare more.
In 10 days i should be able to finally field the first 5 Sentais of Peggy-T with trained pilots in NavT.... this should give the Navy a bit of breath ...hopefully

Have you fielded those 2 sentai more than once? I recall seeing them applied to one battle, but nothing since. You should have hundreds of pilots and airframes that can be fed into that sentai bottleneck still, no? Sure, it's less than 100 kamikazes, but I still would be using them as part of your balanced offensive diet.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
we're succesfully extracting also the 38th Div from Lautem... which is real good! Only 1 Division will be left back at Koepang... the rest has been succesfully evacuated[:D] Now the second line is ready.

Excellent! Where are you extracting them to? Is air transport working well for you in this capacity?

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

I only have 2 Oscar Sentais converted to Kami at the moment. But cannot really spare more.
In 10 days i should be able to finally field the first 5 Sentais of Peggy-T with trained pilots in NavT.... this should give the Navy a bit of breath ...hopefully

Have you fielded those 2 sentai more than once? I recall seeing them applied to one battle, but nothing since. You should have hundreds of pilots and airframes that can be fed into that sentai bottleneck still, no? Sure, it's less than 100 kamikazes, but I still would be using them as part of your balanced offensive diet.

I've used them in 3 situations.
In the last battle I only had one Sentai available cause the other one was refitting at Sosarbaja after the last (failed) attempt to use it during the invasion of Namlea (when the CV-CV battle occurred).
I think I mentioned... however the Kamis went for the CVs south of Roti and got shaddered by the CAP. Not a single one survived. Moved them back to Sosarbaja and is now refilling with Oscars IIIa.

Pilots aren't a problem, even if I would like to preserve all those 70+ LowN pilots for when i'll have masses of Kamikaze Sentai to use them at once

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
we're succesfully extracting also the 38th Div from Lautem... which is real good! Only 1 Division will be left back at Koepang... the rest has been succesfully evacuated[:D] Now the second line is ready.

Excellent! Where are you extracting them to? Is air transport working well for you in this capacity?

It's working great the air lift so far. I'm using Emily-L in places where the strip is closed (Roti was an example), while the WHOLE transport air army (both IJA and IJN) when the fields are left open, like at Lautem, Dili or Alor.

So far we've been able to exctract:
38th Div and the 2nd Area Army HQ from Lautem
A mixed Bde from Dili
A mixed Bde from Alor
the 77th Regiment from Roti
3 regiments from Saumlaki
They are now moving (by air transports or by fast PBs) from Kendari-Makassar back to Mindanao line.
I'll need some more time, obviously, to rebase them all, but the whole process went pretty smoothly[8D]

[GreyJoy]

Clearly most of the heavy equipment had to be left back and also 2 tank regiments are left back to rot, but if QBall wants those bases he will have to destroy them, so i'll be able to buy them back.
However it feels good to have saved all those men from a useless defeat. I've already experimented the mistake of being bypassed... at Hollandia-Rabaul-Bouganville I've lost some 5 divisions worth of troops without even using them...
Won't make that mistake again[;)]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I'd still be throwing Kamikazes into the mix here, GreyJoy. You're fastidiously ignoring this very capable weapons system at heavy cost to your other branches of service.

Also, keep the big picture in mind. It's March 1944 and he's not even taken Timor? He's waaaayyyy behind schedule. You're doing what you're supposed to.

Agree Chicken. But it's too early to convert too many sentais to Kamikaze. Remember that it's a one way trip: once converted they cannot do anything else...
And in march 1944 i simply do not have enough sentais to spare. Fighters Sentais are needed to guard my bases (especailly now that B29s, with their huge range, are arriving on the scene).
Those sentais that are not needed in the front lines are training pilots like mad and God knows how i need trained pilots now.

I only have 2 Oscar Sentais converted to Kami at the moment. But cannot really spare more.
In 10 days i should be able to finally field the first 5 Sentais of Peggy-T with trained pilots in NavT.... this should give the Navy a bit of breath ...hopefully

Oscars and zeros make poor Kamikazes. Since the warhead matters, you need to use aircraft that carry bombs big enough to damage carriers and BBs. Kamikaze attacks like to target BBs and carriers. For the most part the oscars just bounced off my ships. Useful vs CVEs and lighter vessels but there is little guarantee that they will attack the right ship. You need Judys, Jills, Graces, Peggys and Francis for effective kamikaze attacks.

[koniu]

You need Judys, Jills, Graces, Peggys and Francis for effective kamikaze attacks.

All those planes except Peggy are navy planes. Army is limited to planes using 250kg bombs until early/middle `45 when Ki-115 arrive with 800kg bomb.

When we look at pilots pools army need to be used as kami even if they will use only 250kg bombs. Having navy alone in kamikaze role will drain pilot pool very fast. Aslo navy is not able to trai them fast enough.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: koniu

You need Judys, Jills, Graces, Peggys and Francis for effective kamikaze attacks.

All those planes except Peggy are navy planes. Army is limited to planes using 250kg bombs until early/middle `45 when Ki-115 arrive with 800kg bomb.

When we look at pilots pools army need to be used as kami even if they will use only 250kg bombs. Having navy alone in kamikaze role will drain pilot pool very fast. Aslo navy is not able to trai them fast enough.

Mr.Sutton, I think koniu is dead on spot here.
Japan faces a dilemma in 1944/45 (in a scen2 environement): we have LOTS of army pilots but not decent Army planes to conduct a decent anti-Naval campaign.
At the same time we have the good anti-naval planes for the Navy, where there are never enough pilots to fill them.

So, as Koniu says, Japanese player has to do what he can with what he can, so to say use Army fighters and bombers as Kami, even if their warheads are limited.

Me, I have made another big mistake: haven't invested anything in the KI-115...so now I'm stuck with the Peggy-T for the Army as the only frame that can actually cause some problems to the allied shippings.

The bulk of my anti-naval effort will still be carried on by IJN. Have no choices unfortunately.

Army Kamis will help, surely, but not yet. I'm saving them for when i'll really need them...



Now it's time to retreat from Burma I guess. I'm too exposed there and I need to re-allocate my divisions.

What do u all think about Burma? In few months the Thai army will withdraw and i'll be even more stretched than now in Burma...with the risk of being bypassed by an allied landing.
At the same time if I concede Burma for free i'll expose Thailand HI to his bombers...

What should I do?

I'd like to have some of those divisions digging in in Luzon by now...not there at the edge of the Empire... but I see the risk of having a Rangoon in allied hands... every single AF from HK to Brunei to Singa to Palembang will be at risk...

What to do?

[crsutton]

Well, strat bombing of Thailand or not, the Allied player has so much sea-lift capacity that you will need to review every point on the map for the risk of an Allied flanking attack that will trap thousands of your good troops. You are going to have to shorten you lines and it is better to do it before he is behind you and dictating the action. If he gets a strong position in the Philippines or DEI. Then the whole of SE Asia becomes a very big potential trap. One big landing at say, Hanoi or along the coast of China at Paktoi and everything in SE Asia is trapped as there is really only one route out and he will be sitting on it. The toughest part for the Japanese player is when that point is reached in the campaign where the Allies have so much force that they can choose virtually any point on the map to attack. You might cause some ships to be sunk but you won't be able to stop his landings. Choosing where to stand and fight in the last year of the war is almost an impossible task.

At some point there becomes no greater trap for Japan than trying to hold Rangoon. It is so easy to go around and cut off. Ark waited too long in our game and it cost him at least a dozen divisions.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: koniu

You need Judys, Jills, Graces, Peggys and Francis for effective kamikaze attacks.

All those planes except Peggy are navy planes. Army is limited to planes using 250kg bombs until early/middle `45 when Ki-115 arrive with 800kg bomb.

When we look at pilots pools army need to be used as kami even if they will use only 250kg bombs. Having navy alone in kamikaze role will drain pilot pool very fast. Aslo navy is not able to trai them fast enough.

The Frances and Peggy (T) only carry 2 x 250kg + 4 x 50kg, while the Peggy gets 3 x 250kg. Graces are the same load as an Oscar, 2 x 250kg.

Hopefully the 2E is modeled by the kami calculation, thus making a bigger bang, but that hasn't been my experience so far.

The major difference in the late game for naval strikes of any kind is the speed/durability relationship, especially with enhanced flak in the beta or DBB. The best Oscar IV still has very low durability at 23 and 364mph. The 2E planes are not as fast but have very high durability at 38 and 325mph for the P1Y2 and 41 and 334mph for the Peggy Ia (T) and Ib.

The D4Y4 Judy with it's massive 800kg load is low durability at 26 but higher speed at 350. The Grace doesn't have the big bomb but is better at 30 durability and 352mph.

The best of the bunch might be the Ki-102b with 36 durability and 360 mph, but only the 2 x 250kg. Or the Frank 'a' at 30 and 392mph and 2 x 250kg.

In general it'll be tougher to get massive strikes against the big flak wall with less coordination in the beta.

You will be able to train a lot more IJN pilots in early 45, if it still matters then, as the training groups are fantastic. You get a bunch of them and they train faster than normal groups, I swear.

[GreyJoy]

March 12, 1944

The allies are on the move once again!
a HUGE fleet of CV/BBs just departed from Darwin and are reported south of Timor. APA and landing crafts are with them, moving west. My bet? They are landing in one of the islands between Java and Timor recently evacuated by Jap troops.
Can't do much about it and it was a well foreseen move.

The KB is warming its engines at Singapore, ready to come in. Makassar, Kendari and Sosarbaja airfields are ready. Tanaka's fleet (2 Fuso Class BBs, 3 Agano CLs, 6 old CLs and 15 modern DDs) are moving from Menado to Makassar....another clash of Titans on the orizont?

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, strat bombing of Thailand or not, the Allied player has so much sea-lift capacity that you will need to review every point on the map for the risk of an Allied flanking attack that will trap thousands of your good troops. You are going to have to shorten you lines and it is better to do it before he is behind you and dictating the action. If he gets a strong position in the Philippines or DEI. Then the whole of SE Asia becomes a very big potential trap. One big landing at say, Hanoi or along the coast of China at Paktoi and everything in SE Asia is trapped as there is really only one route out and he will be sitting on it. The toughest part for the Japanese player is when that point is reached in the campaign where the Allies have so much force that they can choose virtually any point on the map to attack. You might cause some ships to be sunk but you won't be able to stop his landings. Choosing where to stand and fight in the last year of the war is almost an impossible task.

At some point there becomes no greater trap for Japan than trying to hold Rangoon. It is so easy to go around and cut off. Ark waited too long in our game and it cost him at least a dozen divisions.

I agree and I've been thinking a lot about that.
I decided to start a slow and orchestrated retreat. The RTA divisions will act as a screening force, while the bulk of the 15th Army will abandon slowly northern Burma. The 21st Army will defend Lashio area for the moment, while the 25th Army will keep the allies busy on the western front (Akyab and Ramree). We will slowly get back to Mandalay area until the Monsoon season starts.
At the same time the 16th and 48th Division will move back to Moulmein-Pegu sector, while the rest of the troops will slowly crawl back to Rangoon.
The idea is to abandon Burma by summer 1944. Thailand, in the meanwhile, will be fortified and garrisoned.
I'm not that ready yet cause there are very few decent AFs built in central Thailand...but the risk of having 3 armies cut off in Burma is too great to be taken.
Am now saving PPs in order to buy out another division from China to be brought to Malaya. 1 Air HQ and 5 Base forces are enroute from Tokyo to Saigon.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: koniu

You need Judys, Jills, Graces, Peggys and Francis for effective kamikaze attacks.

All those planes except Peggy are navy planes. Army is limited to planes using 250kg bombs until early/middle `45 when Ki-115 arrive with 800kg bomb.

When we look at pilots pools army need to be used as kami even if they will use only 250kg bombs. Having navy alone in kamikaze role will drain pilot pool very fast. Aslo navy is not able to trai them fast enough.

The Frances and Peggy (T) only carry 2 x 250kg + 4 x 50kg, while the Peggy gets 3 x 250kg. Graces are the same load as an Oscar, 2 x 250kg.

Hopefully the 2E is modeled by the kami calculation, thus making a bigger bang, but that hasn't been my experience so far.

The major difference in the late game for naval strikes of any kind is the speed/durability relationship, especially with enhanced flak in the beta or DBB. The best Oscar IV still has very low durability at 23 and 364mph. The 2E planes are not as fast but have very high durability at 38 and 325mph for the P1Y2 and 41 and 334mph for the Peggy Ia (T) and Ib.

The D4Y4 Judy with it's massive 800kg load is low durability at 26 but higher speed at 350. The Grace doesn't have the big bomb but is better at 30 durability and 352mph.

The best of the bunch might be the Ki-102b with 36 durability and 360 mph, but only the 2 x 250kg. Or the Frank 'a' at 30 and 392mph and 2 x 250kg.

In general it'll be tougher to get massive strikes against the big flak wall with less coordination in the beta.

You will be able to train a lot more IJN pilots in early 45, if it still matters then, as the training groups are fantastic. You get a bunch of them and they train faster than normal groups, I swear.

Imho the Kamikazes need to be used primary to soak up CAP's op points and AA ammos. If you are blessed with 2 days-battle, the Kamis will eventually be able to die in droves (and maybe score some useless hit) but making the CAP more fatigued and the AA to be used en masse, thus leaving space for a second day conventional strike.
I've seen that once the major AA ammos are gone, the conventional attacks still work wonders if you can pass through the CAP screen.
Then it's all about coordination (hard) and some luck(even harder!)

[JocMeister]

GJ,

Are you sure its meaningful to try and resist smaller landings at this point? I think the only chance you have at this point to slow Q-Ball down is to nail assault troops for a major objective. He most likely know you have evacuated these places right? So he is going to go in with just enough to grab the base. Even if you do manage to sink the transports its not going to chance much. He will just load up other troops most likely already prepped for the same place and go in again.

Isn´t it better to preserve your strength to try against a major landing instead? Each time you wreck you strike planes and lose a couple of ships you get a little weaker. Hitting his APA/AKAs isn´t going to change anything at this point. The floodgates are already open and he is swimming in them.

I bet Q-ball would love a huge battle over some smaller islands right now. Not much in it to lose for him. But everything for you! Don´t wreck yourself over something unimportant (in the larger scheme of things).

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

GJ,

Are you sure its meaningful to try and resist smaller landings at this point? I think the only chance you have at this point to slow Q-Ball down is to nail assault troops for a major objective. He most likely know you have evacuated these places right? So he is going to go in with just enough to grab the base. Even if you do manage to sink the transports its not going to chance much. He will just load up other troops most likely already prepped for the same place and go in again.

Isn´t it better to preserve your strength to try against a major landing instead? Each time you wreck you strike planes and lose a couple of ships you get a little weaker. Hitting his APA/AKAs isn´t going to change anything at this point. The floodgates are already open and he is swimming in them.

I bet Q-ball would love a huge battle over some smaller islands right now. Not much in it to lose for him. But everything for you! Don´t wreck yourself over something unimportant (in the larger scheme of things).

You are right Joc. And I need to think about it. To be honest I'm not aiming at the transports anymore at this point.
Brad loves to do island hopping, thus risking very little in terms of troops (as you say). Very often he even uses waves of barges not to risk his transports
but I'd love to cause some more havoc to his CVs. A damaged CVs in the DEI means she'll be out of the war for some 4/6 months (time to ship her back safely to Sydney at least)...
If he has hordes of APAs, he doesn't yet have the superiority in terms of CVs he will have in 6 months from now.
If I'm not mistaken he's now short of 6 CVs (4 sunk and 2 badly damaged), 3 CVLs, 21 CVEs and 41 CA/CLs. He's not yet overwhelming me.

But you're right. I need to be cautious...