A Lemon rises in the East: SqzMyLemon (J) vs. JocMeister (A)

[PaxMondo]

I'm watching the stacking limit AAR's carefully for all these reasons, but the premise is sound. It should work. Proof though yet remains in the AAR's.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I'm watching the stacking limit AAR's carefully for all these reasons, but the premise is sound. It should work. Proof though yet remains in the AAR's.

I'm the same. I really need to see how this will play out before I can honestly comment objectively. Right now I'm just speculating.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I'm watching the stacking limit AAR's carefully for all these reasons, but the premise is sound. It should work. Proof though yet remains in the AAR's.

I'm the same. I really need to see how this will play out before I can honestly comment objectively. Right now I'm just speculating.

Look in my AAR for examples of (and to ask questions about) both island/atoll based over stacking and large land mass over stacking. They are different for a couple of reasons.

[SqzMyLemon]

Pace is slow right now as I'm swamped at work with an unrealistic deadline to meet on my next project. I was able to get a turn off to Jocke last night though, but I don't expect a turn back right away as he's busy with his other game. That suits me fine because my playing time right now is sporadic at best.

Game related. Now that Chengtu has been captured for little loss I'm going to put a blocking force in place to protect the base, but the majority of the troops will shift to invest Chungking and reinforce the offensive to clear the road to Kunming. I should be able to wipe out the remaining few enemy units encircled near Anking within days and that will free up two divisions and two tank regiments for operations against Kunming as well.

I'm reinforcing Burma in an effort to close the door on China. Allied troops are advancing out of Akyab and there is additional movement out of Chittagong. Burma is about to get hot.

KB is still awaiting a move against the Gilbert's or Solomons, but I'm wondering if I should maybe shift it to a more central location to be able to react to a move against Malaya, Sumatra or Java. I need to make some defensive changes as I'm making it too easy for Jocke to advance in the Southeast Pacific without needing his CV's to cover. It may be time to move a strong SCTF closer to the front and look to interdict the next invasion, if I can spot it that is. [8|]

[SqzMyLemon]

Still slow going with turns, although I did get the Nov. 16th turn off to Jocke last night.

China:

One last Chinese corps in the isolated pocket near Anking which should surrender after the next deliberate attack. The troops freed up will march to the sound of the guns at Kunming. Speaking of the move towards Kunming, weakened Chinese units are withdrawing from the hex, but sadly fresh ones are moving in. I'm going to flank the hex to the south to try and invest Kunming directly.

Thoughts:

The high cost of reducing unsupplied Chinese positions in 3x terrain is wearing down a number of my divisions. I'm going to have to pause and replenish which will slow the pace of operations
considerably. It's frustrating to have made it this far against a China with no supply and have the terrain defeat me.

Other than China things are quiet.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

The high cost of reducing unsupplied Chinese positions in 3x terrain is wearing down a number of my divisions. I'm going to have to pause and replenish which will slow the pace of operations
considerably. It's frustrating to have made it this far against a China with no supply and have the terrain defeat me.

Although, in some respects, accurate to history. IJ did have supply issues as they moved inland. And it was terrain and weather that caused the issues.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

The high cost of reducing unsupplied Chinese positions in 3x terrain is wearing down a number of my divisions. I'm going to have to pause and replenish which will slow the pace of operations
considerably. It's frustrating to have made it this far against a China with no supply and have the terrain defeat me.

Although, in some respects, accurate to history. IJ did have supply issues as they moved inland. And it was terrain and weather that caused the issues.

I get the analogies to history, but this is purely in terms of the game. I have supply, the Chinese don't. Regardless of terrain they should be unable to defend these positions solely based on the fact they have no supply for anything. It seems odd that just because a unit occupies a 3x defensive terrain hex it's more effective despite the fact it has no supply to fight with. It shouldn't matter if you are in clear or mountain terrain, no supply should equate to little or no resistance.

[witpqs]

They have no supply in game-terms, not in history terms. In game terms, having no supply means you can do those things. [8D]

[GreyJoy]

Joseph, don't want to sound too harsh, but I think you are not looking at China in the right way.
I'm playing two games with DBB ad SLs. One with Japan and one with the allies. They both are in early 1944 now.
In both games China has been a very active theatre and in both games both parts managed to play a very effective campaign.
Against QBall it was a slow march towards the plains. The key was to rotate the units after every attack and I never overstacked. Eventually the Chinese will retreat and every retreat causes them great problems.
Also keep in mind the importance of the artillery.
For example I remember that in the 50K hexes my attacking formations were typically formed like that: 2 DIVs, 1 HQ, 1 Tank rgt and every possible heavy artillery unit I could fill into that hex.
For some very important places I did overstack...but only for 1 attack. If it failed I moved back and resumed the rotation process.

As the Chinese, against Mr.Kane, despite a HUGE effort and with the Ledo-Kumming air bridge non-operative (my opponent managed to keep the air bridge close) the Chinese are still fighting in 1944. Losing the North right now but Central China is still mine and places like Chikkiang, Kweyang, Tsuyun, Kunming etc are still in my hands.

SLs are great IMHO and I won't play again without them.

To defeat a Chinese army without supplies in a 3x terrain? Bring in all the artillery you can find. Bomb them to dust with your aviation for 30 days and then attack. 3 or 4 deliberate attacks rotating units will do the trick. A slow process but China is like Verdun in 1915 [;)]

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Joseph, don't want to sound too harsh, but I think you are not looking at China in the right way.

Not at all and I'm the first to admit I'm having some difficulty adjusting to what stacking limits do to offensive operations. I'm having trouble defeating over-stacked defensive positions that are out of supply in 3x defensive terrain. I guess I'm trying to rush things, but even while operating within stacking limits myself, my forces are getting killed with high disablements as a result of the terrain modifier. The last two deliberate attacks saw two Japanese divisions lose 2/3's of their strength to disablements while the Chinese forces suffered almost no losses. Artillery and air bombardments are not effective at all and since supply is already exhausted for the Chinese it's only increasing Chinese experience. I just have a real problem with the land combat model in this game, always have and always will, but I'm aware that I have to do my best to have the model work for me rather than against. So far it's been a struggle whenever 3x terrain is involved.

[witpqs]

Although I read someone report that air bombardments increase experience of the bombed troops, I have never seen it; my units always show no gain at all. I can confirm that ground bombardments do increase the experience rating of the the defending units.

Air bombardments of troops directly are very important in land campaigns for three reasons:

- Disabling and destroying devices, be they troops, guns, whatever. Disabled devices defend very poorly, and do not attack at all. Repairing them takes supply, so no supply means no or virtually no repair. Destroyed devices speak for themselves, and once a significant portion of devices are disabled then destruction of devices increases.

- Increasing/maintaining the disruption of units. Disrupted units fight poorly. They also repair devices poorly. They also move more slowly. The same goes to a lesser extent for fatigue, which is another product of being bombed.

- Reducing movement speed. In addition to the indirect effect on movement via disruption and fatigue, bombing switches any units in move mode to combat mode, usually reducing their speed by 50%.

When you are really trying to force a position, bomb it as much as possible. Bombing any nearby bases to get supply hits (and destroy supply) also helps as that supply will then be lost to the troops at the front. Bombing LI, etc. also denies supply to the defender. And of course, protect your own troops from bombing.

[SqzMyLemon]

The next turn is waiting for me in my inbox.

As to the situation 92 miles east of Kunming I've decided to withdraw two divisions for replenishment which will bring me back under stacking limits. I'll launch deliberate attacks when conditions permit. I really can't do much until reinforcements arrive considering the current level of disablements. Bombers will continue to target the defenders, but considering casualties often amount to one or two disabled squads it will be months before bombing has any effect at this rate.

Posting in the forum now is such a pain in the ass I may let the AAR lapse more often than not. This new word wrap issue, or lack thereof, is ridiculous.

[witpqs]

I'm not running into that, maybe because I am using Chrome, but I have heard others mention it and I'm sure it's frustrating. For posting AAR entries, here is one idea. Write your post in a text editor. When done, spell check it, then cut and paste it in. For me, that works much better than posting direct because I write my entry while I process the turn. Even if you don't do that, it might help with the word-wrapping problem.


I recommend Notepad++, free and open source (runs only on Windows):
http://notepad-plus-plus.org/

[SqzMyLemon]

Question. What would be the priority for China at this stage? Should Kunming or Chungking be my priority? The slog through the mountains is going to take months, but so will reducing Chungking so both seem equally daunting at the moment. I believe I should take out Chungking to eliminate the respawning of Chinese LCU's and allow me to concentrate my forces on one front rather than try to push into the mountains and contain Chungking at the same time. Any thoughts?

[witpqs]

Strategically my thought would be Kunming and Tsuyung, even to Paoshan. Cut off the Allies from being able to do any more than airlift in aid (of whatever form). Make it take forever with a large effort for them to open a corridor into China. Chungking can be contained even without conquering it, and it can be invested and conquered slowly, as you point out.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Strategically my thought would be Kunming and Tsuyung, even to Paoshan. Cut off the Allies from being able to do any more than airlift in aid (of whatever form). Make it take forever with a large effort for them to open a corridor into China. Chungking can be contained even without conquering it, and it can be invested and conquered slowly, as you point out.

+1

At the least make sure there is no hope of getting troops out to the mountains. Chungking might be tough, but with little supply it could go faster than you think.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Strategically my thought would be Kunming and Tsuyung, even to Paoshan. Cut off the Allies from being able to do any more than airlift in aid (of whatever form). Make it take forever with a large effort for them to open a corridor into China. Chungking can be contained even without conquering it, and it can be invested and conquered slowly, as you point out.

+1

At the least make sure there is no hope of getting troops out to the mountains. Chungking might be tough, but with little supply it could go faster than you think.

Problem is, the Chinese are already in the mountains between Kunming and Paoshan in large numbers and will soon be joined by another 38 units that are withdrawing the Chengtu to Tsuyung route. I could be facing about 60-80 units. If four out of supply units can block one mountain hex for a month it's going to be near impossible to clear the mountains. That's why I think I should deal with Chungking while I can. If Burma heats up and the Allies reach Lashio before I capture Chungking it's all over. And if GreyJoy's analysis of never over-stacking is correct, I'm going to have surplus divisions sitting around doing nothing, they might as well be used to capture Chungking. I don't know, I can't help think that the entire China campaign has been wasted because I failed to move from Burma. Then again, I never anticipated lack of supply to be such a paper tiger that's completely trumped by terrain. I think I'll rotate 4-6 divisions for the drive on Kunming and use everything else to try and take Chungking quickly.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Strategically my thought would be Kunming and Tsuyung, even to Paoshan. Cut off the Allies from being able to do any more than airlift in aid (of whatever form). Make it take forever with a large effort for them to open a corridor into China. Chungking can be contained even without conquering it, and it can be invested and conquered slowly, as you point out.

+1

At the least make sure there is no hope of getting troops out to the mountains. Chungking might be tough, but with little supply it could go faster than you think.

Problem is, the Chinese are already in the mountains between Kunming and Paoshan in large numbers and will soon be joined by another 38 units that are withdrawing the Chengtu to Tsuyung route. I could be facing about 60-80 units. If four out of supply units can block one mountain hex for a month it's going to be near impossible to clear the mountains. That's why I think I should deal with Chungking while I can. If Burma heats up and the Allies reach Lashio before I capture Chungking it's all over. And if GreyJoy's analysis of never over-stacking is correct, I'm going to have surplus divisions sitting around doing nothing, they might as well be used to capture Chungking. I don't know, I can't help think that the entire China campaign has been wasted because I failed to move from Burma. Then again, I never anticipated lack of supply to be such a paper tiger that's completely trumped by terrain. I think I'll rotate 4-6 divisions for the drive on Kunming and use everything else to try and take Chungking quickly.

Didn't realize so many were already escaping to the hills. Yes, vaporize the center, make sure your upper Burma is solid (you get the same benefit he does from the SL in defense) and deal with that when you know they won't come back and they will be completely out of supply.

Have you tried LR CAP over the isolated units you're trying to break through? Is it possible he's supplying by air?

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Have you tried LR CAP over the isolated units you're trying to break through? Is it possible he's supplying by air?

I'll post a map tonight, the enemy force I'm trying to breakthrough isn't isolated. They are blocking the route to Kunming 92 miles east of the base. They are about to be reinforced with fresh units while the battered corps withdraw west. Their position hasn't changed from any of the previous screenshots of China. I'm completely stalled two hexes east of Kunming and can't get better than a 1:1 attack no matter what I do and casualties have been completely one sided in China's favour.

[GreyJoy]

Chungking is a PITA imho. It's not Worth the effort strategically speaking. Enter at Chungking with 4 divisions, then, with regiments, enter from all the other hexes so to close every entry-exit from it. Leave there an HQ with some artillery and 2 divisions and let them rot.
Bomb it every day with 40/60 Helens for the rest of the war. They won't be able to break the siege without supplies and they're gonna be overstacked everytime a new unit respawn.

with the rest of the Chinese army assault the Kumming area. don't rush, you don't need to. Secure Lashio and advance from the east. Take your time. Air bombings and heavy land artillery will do the trick. Not today. Not Tomorrow. Not in the next month. But you have time on your side. don't sweat. You just need 5 divisions, 1 HQ, some Cbt engineers and lots of artillery. The The disabled divisions will be brought back to HK, ready to be bought out and sent somewhere else.
China is already yours strategically. Chungking is not needed once the plains are yours