Re: Historical Accuracy posts

[lastkozak]

I am wondering if it is possible to have some streamlined forum for discussing and proposing possible errors or questions pertaining to historical accuracy of the game? Or a place to ask questions and get answers from the designers specifically, and/or where more civil and perhaps more academic discussions can take place (and citing things beyond wikipedia).

I am sure that there are many people who have thoughts, criticisms and argument to historical accuracy questions in the game. So far, so many discussions end up shooting off into many directions that it is difficult finding them all, or discussing each topic separately.

I can see nothing but benefit coming to the designers, since so many forum users are well versed in the History of this period as well as few, I am sure, who may have some academic background in History. Though I am not a Historian, I am a senior High School History Teacher, with a bone to pick about 'Folk History' versus Historical Academia. Of course there is always the debate as to what level of historical accuracy are the designers and producers of the game going for? How much is needed to sell the product?

Some questions which I have noticed are:
- The lack of any real naval involvement, in the Black and Baltic seas.
- The use of Naval Guns in Leningrad's defense.
- The use of the Black Sea Navy for Bombardment and special operations in the Black Sea; bombarding Constantia.
- The Bombing of Polesti by Soviets early in the war.
- The much discussed Ju52 supply methods, and over use of HQ build ups.
- I am sure the members could come up with an exceptionally long list.
- Forts and coastal batteries with Gun emplacements which had ranges greater than 10 km; not represented in the game.
- Old Fortifications which the Soviets reused, which are not represented in the game.
- More Supplies for the German war machine when the Soviet Submarine fleet is lost if Leningrad fell? More or less supplies of illegal chrome ore from Turkey, if and when Sevastopol falls, and even more when there are no more Soviet Ports in the Black Sea.
- There were air forces for both the Black and Baltic seas, to protect the navies, but now these planes are just used for other soviet operations.

Thanks for listening!

lastkozak

[carlkay58]

The naval units are not really covered in this game. War in the West (WitW)is beginning to add naval units but it will be some time (if ever) before the naval game is up to the land type of detail.

You can bomb Polesti early in the war as the Soviets. There will be little effect under the current version however. This is another thing that WitW is developing for the series.

The rest of your list falls into the 'not yet addressed' list. Whether they ever will be is up to the designers.

[Gabriel B.]

I did hit Ploesti several week in a row with 200 bomber raids, but it takes to long to put out even 25 percent out of action
by which time the axis can get some better defense organised .

[lastkozak]

I did hit Ploesti several week in a row with 200 bomber raids, but it takes to long to put out even 25 percent out of action
by which time the axis can get some better defense organised .

Yes, the impression I got from a Documentary was that the damage was extensive enough that it was this which influenced Hitler into going into Crimea and Sevastopol, when they did. Given that refineries are easy targets and once a few storage tanks go up, there is a tendency for a chain reaction. If anything it is costly to repair. However the designers would need to know, how much fuel reserves the Germans had, and how much they were dependent upon Ploesti for fuel. Did it infact decrease fuel availability in '41, or not?

[Bozo_the_Clown]

You can hit Ploesti on T1 with your long range bombers and get up to 6% damage. At least that is the maximum damage I ever achieved. But the repair rate for industry is way to fast. If the repair rate would be only 1% per turn it would be more interesting to bomb industry.

The same goes for ports. Ports are handled completely wrong in this game. Ports should always be 100% damaged when captured and the repair rate should be randomized.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: lastkozak

I did hit Ploesti several week in a row with 200 bomber raids, but it takes to long to put out even 25 percent out of action
by which time the axis can get some better defense organised .

Yes, the impression I got from a Documentary was that the damage was extensive enough that it was this which influenced Hitler into going into Crimea and Sevastopol, when they did. Given that refineries are easy targets and once a few storage tanks go up, there is a tendency for a chain reaction. If anything it is costly to repair. However the designers would need to know, how much fuel reserves the Germans had, and how much they were dependent upon Ploesti for fuel. Did it infact decrease fuel availability in '41, or not?

Short ansver NO.
It took the USAAF 15th airforce 3 months to acheive damage beyond 50 % , so there might be easy targets, but not with 1940 bombing sights. The Tidal Wave planers got it right , Go at tree top level with 200 big bombers and raise hell .

I did aim for 5-6 % damage per turn hopping to overwelm the repair capacity but against a human oponent it is pointles .

[Ketza]

I have bombed Ploesti into a smoking ruin multiple times. I don't think it has any impact whatsoever [:D]

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Define smoking ruin. I mean percentage wise.

[Ketza]

100% fuel and Oil damage....

[Bozo_the_Clown]

100% fuel and Oil damage....

Did you keep them at 100% damage for an extended period?

[Ketza]

Through the Blizzard from the start of the game. No Axis player ever defended the place with fighters so after awhile I stopped the bombing assuming it was pointless.

Funny thing is no one ever tried it against me but I always defended the place regardless.

[Gabriel B.]

did you use daylight bombing ?

[Brandle]

interesting paragraph from Black Cross Red Star vol 1



page 72

In 1941 the Germans were ill prepared to sustain the losses inflicted by the tenacious Soviet resistance. After 9 days of war, 699 German aircraft, including 286 bombers, had been lost. Soviet claims match these figures 613 shot down by fighters, 49 by AAA.

If we are trying to get accurate results in WitE, we may need to rethink how we go about it to get these losses after turn 2.




BC/RS Vol 1 says after 1 month:


Soviet losses = 7564 aircraft

German = 1284 or almost half the original force

[lastkozak]

brandle, that is exactly the type of reference and discussion which I was proposing, not to devalue the others' here who have input their ideas and thoughts.

I suspect that the game design may have been influenced by pro-german players, and nazi folk history. Although many germans soldiers lived to tell their stories, too often the info they had were via the german propaganda machine, thus there are limitations to the history of the eastern front. Fortunately the Russians are allowing greater access to their archives, since they are no longer attempting to protect Stalin's memory!

Perhaps a comparison of the historical reports from the allies' battles with the germans versus the historical records and recollections of the germans, of the same battles, can indicate the deviation from the truth, which the propaganda machine had; thus allowing us an idea of what margins of error to consider when reading Germans recollections of the eastern front!

I had never thought the casualties of the Luftwaffe were so high, although it makes sense, since they ran out of planes, but these losses cannot be accounted for by the allies' kills! It has always seemed that during 41-42, a large portion of the Luftwaffe disappeared off the records.

Do these losses include german allied losses also?

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: lastkozak

I suspect that the game design may have been influenced by pro-german players, and nazi folk history.

Interesting statement. If we look at total aircraft losses, the game woefully understates the Soviet losses. In the game the Soviet player - as far as I can see from AARs - lose 50.000 planes at best. In reality, however, the VVS lost some 106.400 planes (46.100 combat losses), with combat aircraft losses at 88.300 (43.100 combat losses). Before you counter with the source, the source is the book Grif Sekretnosti Sniat by G. F. Krivosheev, so a Russian source. That's why the VVS just blows up after 1941, reaching some 20.000 to 30.000 planes in 1944-45.

ORIGINAL: Brandle

page 72

In 1941 the Germans were ill prepared to sustain the losses inflicted by the tenacious Soviet resistance. After 9 days of war, 699 German aircraft, including 286 bombers, had been lost. Soviet claims match these figures 613 shot down by fighters, 49 by AAA.

I'd be careful with the Soviet claims. It was incredibly hard to clearly identify shot down aircraft in those days. The margin of error is quite high. So it is possible (not saying that it is necessarily so) that the Soviet claims are off by a good margin and that a good portion of the German losses are actually operational losses.

In that regard the German numbers were (most of the time, not always of course) relatively good. The Luftwaffe had high requirements for recognizing a kill. The kill had to be confirmed by a witness (aside from the pilot himself), or the wreckage had to be found and this process often took quite some time. That's why for example the number of German fighter kills are lower than the Western Allied losses over Germany, even after factoring in losses due to flak.

One area the (admittedly broken) air model does very poorly in, is the percentage of aircraft that are operational. I don't know about the Soviet side, but for example in 1943-44 only about 50% of the Luftwaffe aircraft in the East were operational.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: Brandle

interesting paragraph from Black Cross Red Star vol 1



page 72

In 1941 the Germans were ill prepared to sustain the losses inflicted by the tenacious Soviet resistance. After 9 days of war, 699 German aircraft, including 286 bombers, had been lost. Soviet claims match these figures 613 shot down by fighters, 49 by AAA.

If we are trying to get accurate results in WitE, we may need to rethink how we go about it to get these losses after turn 2.




BC/RS Vol 1 says after 1 month:


Soviet losses = 7564 aircraft

German = 1284 or almost half the original force

apples vs lemons .

soviet figures means total loss .

german figure means destroyed + damaged .

[Tom Hunter]

Lastkozak, though everything you list is true, I’ll suggest that there are other, perhaps larger issues to consider.

No Soviet or German general would be allowed to stay in charge if they did not attack.

In the war victory was defined in many ways. Sometimes it was taking a place, like Leningrad, sometimes it was stopping the enemy on a river line, sometimes turning a rout into a stable line, or capturing an army out in the open. In game victory is very static, which reflects the roots of these games in the paper and carboard games of the 1960s to 1990s.

As a number of people have noted, the pace of operations is too fast, much faster than historical.

The game is missing millions and millions of Russians. I have not done the math but I am wondering if it is missing as many Russians as were killed in the war, that seems possible.

I’m enjoying the game, but the historical issues go way beyond the missing navy or strategic bombing.

[lastkozak]

If such is true, are we comparing the same time periods? Brandle is indicating the 9 day mark and the 1 month mark. Which period of time does your source indicate the stats are from? Where was it published and what data was used? Recent data? Just because he is Russian does not mean he looked through the old secret files of the Soviet Union. Allied sources will use German data often. The good books compare what both sides indicated, the bad books mention one side's data only.

I am not criticizing your input, nor suggesting that you are incorrect, as much as putting forward explanations for the differences in numbers of planes shot down.

[lastkozak]

Gabriel B.

If what you say you believe to be true, then indicate where you obtained this information, and where did the author get there info, and does i cover the same periods of time? We cannot have a discussion if, like you say, we are comparing apples to lemons!

[Brandle]

Not quite as much detail about Axis losses but Vol 1 covers Jun '41-Dec'41.

On another note, I guess you consider Germany somehow more guilty than Russia for invading Poland, rounding up and killing innocents and basically starting war? It seems to me they were partners for a long time and caused alot of pain before Germany turned on Russia.