German production in '42 - is it just me?

[rmonical]

I wonder if anybody else runs into this situation as Germans in '42. This is my second head to head summer. I thought I was doing fine with armaments with over 100K so I set my artillery SUs back to 100%. That 100K disappeared and I have not recovered.

The effect is this:
The "expensive" infantry elements are disproportionately produced as a percentage of TOE and as a percentage of armaments spend. The before and after refit images show the first and the highlighted rows in the spreadsheet show the second effect. This sucks up the available armaments points so the rifle squads are always lagging and manpower builds in the active pool. The most engaged combat units are thus weaker and their losses are higher - creating one of those vicious feedback loops.

The fixes I recommend are:
1. Fix the cavalry TOE. Allocating two cavalry companies to every infantry division is wrong. If we are going to stick with a single TOE for all divisions, then drop the cavalry squads to 6 and add 12 infantry squads.
2. Apply the "expensive element" production check to panzer grenadier, panzer pioneer, cavalry and motorcycle squads. Make them as difficult to produce as comparably priced crew served weapons.

These recommendation improves historical accuracy and use existing game mechanics. Irrespective of TOE, the Germans divisions I see in my HPS Simulation games in '42 have no cavalry and no motorcycle companies.

[morvael]

This is something I intend to fix for .13 (or .12b as it may be called), but for now I have nothing to report yet.

[Peltonx]

Yes it a major game screwer upper 43+

Any games in 42+ should be put on hold until there is a patch.

This has a HUGE snowball effect and I mean huge after 52 turns.

What it does is waste arm, which should be going into converting stuff, so even when it is fixed your converting ect ect will be months or even yrs behind.

So you will remain at zero forever, because you can't over come the lost armament pts.

This starts a snowball effect of the SHC winning battles they should not be (gain/lost of morale SHC/GHC).

You don't see the effects until early 43, which means the game is screwed up because GHC is so far behind the 8 ball.

SHC wins by default------- ZERO skill required.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: morvael

This is something I intend to fix for .13 (or .12b as it may be called), but for now I have nothing to report yet.

This needs to be done ASAP as people are really screwing up there current games.

I know you busted your ass and done a super human job fixing a very screwed up product we all been playing for 3 yrs.

I believe that once you fix these game killers WitE will finally be playable 43+

2by3 really dropped the ball on this stuff

Thanks again for taking the time to look into the issues I pointed out for over a yr and you found the many many problems

Great great work.

I hope to hell your working on WitW for very clear reasons.

An ugly baby is ugly.

Thanks again for cleaning up someone esle mess

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[rmonical]

Yes it a major game screwer upper 43+

I find it devastating in '42. Seems to be my style.

[Priapus1]

On a related note, I think morvael has mentioned in the past that german tank production is extremely low and aircraft production is much too high.

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: morvael

This is something I intend to fix for .13 (or .12b as it may be called), but for now I have nothing to report yet.

Hi Moravel, I'd like to thank you for the time and effort and echo what others have said in regards to a patch the sooner the better.

Have a great Christmas / holiday season!!

[morvael]

Thanks, I start a new job in January (second half of 2013 was a period of shutting down the company I work for, so I had a lot of downtime there, spent working on WitE) and it will be harder for me to work on WitE/WitW. I will work on it, but it will be progressing much slower.

I wish you all the best for Christmas as well!

[Walloc]

Another solution could be to remove the 1 mio Manpower that the germans has to much early on, lalalala. Without that there wont be an armament issue. As outfitting those 1 mio men extra ofc
costs in armament.
About Tank and plane production we been there before. If morvael and i doubt he has said that its wrong. We alrdy several times been going through the numbers. As the production is doesnt
fluctuate as the historic ones but is set at X number divided over how ever many turns. So u will see deviations on monthly/quaterly numbers but when u add it over over time it adds up.
Ppl when just alwasy seems to forget the free stuff that arrives with units. For exampel u have several examples of having pz division arrive with 150 tanks they'd come from some where.
They dont just magicly appeare. So in effect u hafta remove that from the in game productions numbers and so on.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[rmonical]

Ppl when just alwasy seems to forget the free stuff that arrives with units. For exampel u have several examples of having pz division arrive with 150 tanks they'd come from some where.

While I generally agree tank production is pretty close, no one challenged my analysis of the 300 missing PzIIIs. I could really use those in my game with Hoooper right now given I cannot use all my manpower.

tm.asp?m=3456121

We had to wait for WITW to really determine if any tanks are really missing. I'm so frustrated in my game with Hooper right now I'll probably pause and count PzIVs this weekend.

[Denniss]

Not to forget the older Pz III and IV that get lost to scrapping whereas in realworld they were upgraded with armor and bigger/longer guns. Same for StuG IIIs.
AFAIR we have a too high long-gunned Pz IV production in 42 though.

[rmonical]

AFAIR we have a too high long-gunned Pz IV production in 42 though.

A little. wwiivehicles.com shows 895 longs produced in '42.
Niehorstor shows deliveries to Africa of 60 longs (incl. 12 sunk) in '42. There are also 97 date uncertain deliveries Nov 42 to May 43.

WITE shows available production of 852 plus 12 longs arriving as reinforcement in '42. So using 60 -> NA and 864 in game, we have 924 accounted for verses 895 historical. Some longs were probably in France - I don't know how many.

There is no question that long production runs high in '42 (1101 vs 895), it is minimally reflected in the game because only 864 of the 1101 show up in WITE. If you drop the production of the g/43s from 9 to 8 you get 996 game vice 895 historical, but that drops PzIV longs in WITE to 747. There would be 807 accounted for leaving 88 unaccounted for.

[Denniss]

They actually built 869 Pz IV Ausf. G (+ the unverified claim of 25 converted F) in 1942

[morvael]

Do you remember to factor German production percentage that is applied on factory basis and rounding down? Weeks in production times build limit is not accurate estimate. Plus one has to count all those units that arrive AND leave with those tanks.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

Ppl when just alwasy seems to forget the free stuff that arrives with units. For exampel u have several examples of having pz division arrive with 150 tanks they'd come from some where.

While I generally agree tank production is pretty close, no one challenged my analysis of the 300 missing PzIIIs. I could really use those in my game with Hoooper right now given I cannot use all my manpower.

tm.asp?m=3456121

We had to wait for WITW to really determine if any tanks are really missing. I'm so frustrated in my game with Hooper right now I'll probably pause and count PzIVs this weekend.

Actually u should read my posts here:

tm.asp?m=3398962

Yes u get to low PzIII "production" in june-dec 41, when just looking at it. How ever when u include reinforcement and N Afica and other stuff listed in that thread and then know what happens in teh Months after. You get more PzIIIs than actual production in jan-march 42.
Its an effect of the "standized" weekly production. Is it perfect, no but when i add up the numbers and known oddities among others those listed in that thread then the difference i see is very small. If u dont take stuff like that into account and just look at prodcution figurs production will look to low but in actuallity the number of actual vechicles introduced in game fits fairly well. No i havent been through each and every one but i for example did go through PzIIIs as Sigup/other complained.
Nor is stuff like vehicles going to Panzer Schule's deducted.

[Denniss]

The weekly production is generalized to get the desired amount of real-world production tanks minus those arriving in units. The game system does not allow to simulate production spikes or periods of no/low production.

But the Germans suffer from unneccessary losses like two mot divs that were demotorized in 1943 but in-game withdrawn and replaced by inf divs (one even gets upgraded to PzG div so even more vehicles and tanks are lost). Plus the in-game unit withdrawal following historic destruction in actions like Stalingrad (although several withdrawals were delayed to dates when the replacement was sent to another front).

[rmonical]

Do you remember to factor German production percentage that is applied on factory basis and rounding down? Weeks in production times build limit is not accurate estimate. Plus one has to count all those units that arrive AND leave with those tanks.

Not only that, I factor in the startup transient, the overlap week and then confirm the spreadsheet against actual production figures from the game(I have saves through September 43).

[rmonical]

I think my PzIII counts are tight. Here is the updated analysis.

tm.asp?m=3456121&mpage=1&key=&#3496832

I recommend we take this tank production discussion back to the scenario design thread and leave this thread to focus on A unit production. I do have some thoughts on Pz IV production.

[morvael]

Keep gathering information. I will need a helping hand to adjust ground elements for .13, especially the most important things like German Pz IVs. It will be possible to specify separate factory (what is produced instead) and field (what is used instead in the field) upgrade paths, scrapping policy (none, instant, any number of years after end date), automate TOE upgrades (so a slot can be immediately upgraded to newer element as it enters production, helping with switch to new elements, instead of waiting for next year's TOE) and most important of all - internal imports which can be used for upgrades of AFVs or adding new weapons to squads without the need to build them anew, with specified arm cost and speed.

[morvael]

These things will be optional, so by myself I intend only to use these new functions for infantry squads upgrades to reduce ARM drain.