Pelton vs Kelblau 1.07.11 game over Resigned T-14

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I'll also point out that your headline is wrong, Kelblau clearly holds Moscow. Saper222 took Moscow from me T14 the best you can do is a tie.

Look at that last screen. Moscow is taken. You see those two orange hexes with the red one to the west? That's Moscow.

[Tom Hunter]

My apologies to Pelton, but I blame fading eyesight and Kelblau's failure to garrison the city.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

My apologies to Pelton, but I blame fading eyesight and Kelblau's failure to garrison the city.

The city is lost once the rail lines are cut, I have done the same thing in the past vs good SHC players-M60 for one.

As far as tactics, I had 4 stacks of Panzers 40+ MP's

1. Infantry clear fort line and some of 2nd, they then cover flanks. The assault is always 3 hexes wide 3 to 4 hexes deep. This makes it impossible for SHC to stop the breakthough. They might be able to cut it of, but far from the fort lines they had, so the following turn the pocket WILL be sealed and the fort lines usless causing a front wide withdrawal. SO SHC is of balance and cant recover until Mud.
2. 1 stack of panzers ( loaded with pioneers ) clear the 2nd and 3rd lines using hasty attacks then hit a few retreated units 5-7 hexes from front. They then cover flanks.
3. 1 stack is reserves incase a D attack or 2 is needed is needed.
4. 1 stack tries to widen breakthrough area.
5. 1 stack is raiders.

You can do this with 3 stacks.

In 1942 you do the panzer ball and have 8 stacks in one area. This is why 85-90+ morale infantry unit are so important in 42.

I am considering doing a 42 panzer ball in 41 vs the better SHC players starting on turn 7ish.

[Michael T]

I am considering doing a 42 panzer ball in 41 vs the better SHC players starting on turn 7ish

You are not alone.

[Kel]

Dear friends,
While I'm not a complete beginner to WiTE, in fact I stopped playing it 1,5 years ago and this lack of practice is clearly showing. I am flattered by Pelton initial laudative comments, but the truth is that during this initial period of war, I felt completely overwhelmed in front of the brutal efficiency of his panzer thrusts. Obviously, I am lacking adequate defensive skills and made several mistakes:
- incorrect allocation of APs (leader changes vs SU)
- poor protection/garrisoning of major cities
- waste of APs spent building forts in the soon-to-be-doomed Leningrad pocket
- sub-optimal use of ready/ refit status
- and above all : incorrect defensive choices evaluation caused by an underestimation of the panzer piercing power and reach : blocking wall deployment/short distance checkerboard retreat/ all-out withdrawal


Anyway, these 10 turns were really instructive (as well as the PBEM session with Callistrid and the harsh lessons he taught me)

I will keep playing but, having failed to evacuate all of Moscow valuable factories, the future of the RKKA seems to be rather bleak. Anyway, I'll do my best and I will conclude by stating that Pelton german play is very impressive. With some work and careful study of good soviet AARs (if you can point me to the most helpful threads, it will be appreciated), perhaps in a few months, I will be a semi-competent soviet opponent. Thanks. K.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Kelblau

Dear friends,
While I'm not a complete beginner to WiTE, in fact I stopped playing it 1,5 years ago and this lack of practice is clearly showing. I am flattered by Pelton initial laudative comments, but the truth is that during this initial period of war, I felt completely overwhelmed in front of the brutal efficiency of his panzer thrusts. Obviously, I am lacking adequate defensive skills and made several mistakes:
- incorrect allocation of APs (leader changes vs SU)
- poor protection/garrisoning of major cities
- waste of APs spent building forts in the soon-to-be-doomed Leningrad pocket
- sub-optimal use of ready/ refit status
- and above all : incorrect defensive choices evaluation caused by an underestimation of the panzer piercing power and reach : blocking wall deployment/short distance checkerboard retreat/ all-out withdrawal


Anyway, these 10 turns were really instructive (as well as the PBEM session with Callistrid and the harsh lessons he taught me)

I will keep playing but, having failed to evacuate all of Moscow valuable factories, the future of the RKKA seems to be rather bleak. Anyway, I'll do my best and I will conclude by stating that Pelton german play is very impressive. With some work and careful study of good soviet AARs (if you can point me to the most helpful threads, it will be appreciated), perhaps in a few months, I will be a semi-competent soviet opponent. Thanks. K.

Thanks, problem is if GHC has a good turn 4-6 its next to impossible to recover.

U can resign at any time if you feel game is a waste of your time.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I am considering doing a 42 panzer ball in 41 vs the better SHC players starting on turn 7ish

You are not alone.

Yes hitting a wall vs Saper same as with you and Flaviusx. South is there for the taking for sure in any case.

I am thinking that at some pt between turns 5-6 that forming up a large panzer ball is only way to go and pocket completely forget about citys and industry

[Michael T]

What is needed (and I have been saying this for a while) is a SD check around August 1941. Geared to prevent a Soviet runaway. Forcing the Soviet to fight forward and in doing so lose large amounts of units.

The problem is (and for many East Front games) that a Soviet without any Political shackles will simply give up territory freely so he can create a wall somewhere.

The best games are those that force the Soviet to defend his territory and force the German to keep moving forward right up to the blizzard. SD checks for both sides can enforce this. Its the only answer for WITE 1.0.

[topeverest]

This is a very important lesson to a game neebie. Thanks pelton. I understand the basics of the attack here that led to the moscow success. Am I right in assuming the correct Russian play is to continue to withdrawal?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

What is needed (and I have been saying this for a while) is a SD check around August 1941. Geared to prevent a Soviet runaway. Forcing the Soviet to fight forward and in doing so lose large amounts of units.

Which in the context of the current abuse of turn 1 is code for wanting a guaranteed German win?

I agree, the Soviet player should be under more pressure to fight in 1941 (and its a damn sight more fun too), but the essential quid pro quo is not just not doing the super-Lvov abuse but abandoning the normal Lvov - and, since the core logistic model is not likely to be fixed before WiW, playing with reduced logistics.

All of which is a fair set of trade offs.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: loki100

- and, since the core logistic model is not likely to be fixed before WiW, playing with reduced logistics.

No one is going to know if anything is fixed or not, because the people that are good at playing on the edge of things will
not be playing until witw's release.

MT(reporting), Saper (not so much) and myself(reporting) have found most of the major bugs/exploits and horrible WAD over the last 2 yrs.
Most of the good old boys (yes men) that tested WitE play to make sure things are historical ect, not to push the rules set to the limit.

So we really will not know if we are going to get something riddled with bugs, exploits and poor design

or working perfectly.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

What is needed (and I have been saying this for a while) is a SD check around August 1941. Geared to prevent a Soviet runaway. Forcing the Soviet to fight forward and in doing so lose large amounts of units.

The problem is (and for many East Front games) that a Soviet without any Political shackles will simply give up territory freely so he can create a wall somewhere.

The best games are those that force the Soviet to defend his territory and force the German to keep moving forward right up to the blizzard. SD checks for both sides can enforce this. Its the only answer for WITE 1.0.

I'll stand and fight if you stop blowing up my entire front line on turn 1. C'mon, Micheal, it's preposterous to put this all on the Soviet. In a good chicken and egg problem, you have a chicken and egg.

[SuluSea]

Your Panzer thrusts are impressive Pelton. I'm studying your maps hoping to learn something, great work!!!!

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: Michael T

What is needed (and I have been saying this for a while) is a SD check around August 1941. Geared to prevent a Soviet runaway. Forcing the Soviet to fight forward and in doing so lose large amounts of units.

The problem is (and for many East Front games) that a Soviet without any Political shackles will simply give up territory freely so he can create a wall somewhere.

The best games are those that force the Soviet to defend his territory and force the German to keep moving forward right up to the blizzard. SD checks for both sides can enforce this. Its the only answer for WITE 1.0.

I'll stand and fight if you stop blowing up my entire front line on turn 1. C'mon, Micheal, it's preposterous to put this all on the Soviet. In a good chicken and egg problem, you have a chicken and egg.

The chicken is eating the egg

[Peltonx]

Turn 14

[Callistrid]

Pelton can you post an OOB, and casualty list?

[topeverest]

Being new to this game, I find myself needing to study this spectacular panzer tactic more. Are there more AAR examples of this tactic.

[Flaviusx]

Pelton, a truly forward Soviet defense is impossible under the present ruleset against any kind of first class opponent. So, no, you can't just impose an August sudden death check and leave it at that. This would merely result in the Red Army being destroyed in August and then the Wehrmacht driving east against scattered opposition until mud.

I'm perfectly willing in principle to change the victory conditions here provided:

1. A replacement system that can actually absorb historical losses.
2. Alterations in the surprise turn.
3. Elimination of the HQ buildup.

Then, yes. By all means, make the Red Army stand its ground and die if it has the tools to do so. Otherwise, you're just creating a glorified victory parade here for the Axis.

[Callistrid]

I belive the Lvov opening is the key. If the strongest troops (mostly 4-7 CV Tank divisions) will be encicred at the first turn, the soviet defense really gets a huge blow.

Those strong troops are very important to secure, and slow the german advace.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, a truly forward Soviet defense is impossible under the present ruleset against any kind of first class opponent. So, no, you can't just impose an August sudden death check and leave it at that. This would merely result in the Red Army being destroyed in August and then the Wehrmacht driving east against scattered opposition until mud.

I'm perfectly willing in principle to change the victory conditions here provided:

1. A replacement system that can actually absorb historical losses.
2. Alterations in the surprise turn.
3. Elimination of the HQ buildup.

Then, yes. By all means, make the Red Army stand its ground and die if it has the tools to do so. Otherwise, you're just creating a glorified victory parade here for the Axis.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

Pelton can you post an OOB, and casualty list?

I will probably throw one up next turn.

4 games on going so AAR's will be light.