Sad story, HMAS Perth being stripped by commercial salvagers

[f4migcap]

Sad story about commercial salvagers stripping the HMAS Perth, sunk in the Battle of Sundra Strait. I hope it can be stopped. And isn't the USS Houston nearby. Hope it hasn't been touched.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-13/o ... rs/5156320

[f4migcap]

Ok...these commercials evidently salvaged the Dutch Submarine O-16 which was sunk by mines on December 15, 1941 with only one survivor.

from same article
"Several salvage barges have been spotted in the area, and one was photographed in October dredging up the carcass of a Dutch submarine - the O-16 - which sank off the coast of Malaysia."

So what are they going to go after next, the USS Houston?

[crsutton]

Well, it is a bit sad but we have to remember that salvage of sunken ships has been around as long as ships have. There are thousands of ship with thousands of tragic stories behind them that have been salvaged over the last few millennia.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Wrong title... should be
HMAS Perth: WWII warship grave stripped by savages

[:-]

[Tom Hunter]

Those are war graves, the governments involved are completely within their rights to stop the activity, which is not salvage, its grave robbing.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Those are war graves, the governments involved are completely within their rights to stop the activity, which is not salvage, its grave robbing.

I disagree.

A fair comparison would be the removal of the dead from the battlefields of the First World War so that they can get a proper burial in a war cemetary and farmers can actually do something productive with the land. Except in this case the feild is a collection of valuable metal and there are probably no remains left to bury.

At the end of the day, the salvage of some small item, along the lines of the ships bell for a public memorial will be a far better memorial to the dead than a hulk of rusty steel at the bottom of the seabed that few will ever see.

[Tom Hunter]

@ mind_messing

I neither agree nor disagree, I'm just quoting the law. Though reading the story it seems the Australian govt has somehow neglected to designate the Perth a war grave. The UK, Germany and the US (among others) are very clear on their sunken warships being war graves, that has nothing to do with any of our personal opinions.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

@ mind_messing

I neither agree nor disagree, I'm just quoting the law. Though reading the story it seems the Australian govt has somehow neglected to designate the Perth a war grave. The UK, Germany and the US (among others) are very clear on their sunken warships being war graves, that has nothing to do with any of our personal opinions.

Can they designate it a war grave if it's outside their territorial waters? I'm not sure on the law here.


Also, I agree with mind_messing on the ship's bell. Far better memorial than a rusting hulk on the bottom of the ocean. If it can be done for any given ship, anyway.

[Feltan]

They can designate anything they want -- enforcing such a designation might get tricky if it is in the territorial waters of another country with whom relations are cool.

Regards,
Feltan

[Symon]

By International Maritime Law, military shipwrecks, remain under the jurisdiction of the national government that lost the ship (and its sucessors). If a nation is a member of the UN, they signed the IML treaty provisions. National governments are the governing authority for disposition of a wreck as a War Grave, subject to certain provisions. In the UK, this is governed by the 1986 Military Remains Act, In the US, it’s governed by whatever Congress thinks appropriate at the moment, regulated (not) by the 1987 Abandoned Shipwreck Act.

Even though a wreck site is designated as a War Grave, there are many opportunities for recovery. Recovery is not “salvage”, nor “derelict”, nor “jetsam”. Anyone may apply for permission to recover objects of a historical nature. These permissions are almost always granted so long as recovery does not disturb the grave site.

Nations may not unilaterally declare all their national wrecks as grave sites. They are required to “specifically” identify those ships and locations, such that they are specifically identifiable. Hey! otherwise Spain gets all the gold and silver and everything else that wreck divers find in the Florida Straits. Woof !!

A grave is a grave and must be respected as such. But is a ship’s bell a grave? Don’t think so. Bring up a historical artifact from a deep resting place, and display it as a memorial: “to them who is, from them who was”. That is righteous in my book.

I think it all depends on who’s thinking what, and who’s doing what to whom. Ciao. J

[rsallen64]

If there's money to be made, there will be always be people that ignore common decency and respect.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Symon

By International Maritime Law, military shipwrecks, remain under the jurisdiction of the national government that lost the ship (and its sucessors). If a nation is a member of the UN, they signed the IML treaty provisions. National governments are the governing authority for disposition of a wreck as a War Grave, subject to certain provisions. In the UK, this is governed by the 1986 Military Remains Act, In the US, it’s governed by whatever Congress thinks appropriate at the moment, regulated (not) by the 1987 Abandoned Shipwreck Act.

Even though a wreck site is designated as a War Grave, there are many opportunities for recovery. Recovery is not “salvage”, nor “derelict”, nor “jetsam”. Anyone may apply for permission to recover objects of a historical nature. These permissions are almost always granted so long as recovery does not disturb the grave site.

Nations may not unilaterally declare all their national wrecks as grave sites. They are required to “specifically” identify those ships and locations, such that they are specifically identifiable. Hey! otherwise Spain gets all the gold and silver and everything else that wreck divers find in the Florida Straits. Woof !!

A grave is a grave and must be respected as such. But is a ship’s bell a grave? Don’t think so. Bring up a historical artifact from a deep resting place, and display it as a memorial: “to them who is, from them who was”. That is righteous in my book.

I think it all depends on who’s thinking what, and who’s doing what to whom. Ciao. J

Right on.

Thanks for the info.

[jcjordan]

I not sure how the Aussie gov't takes to it but I know the USN would send a CVN battle group if they tried to go after the Houston for salvage.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

I not sure how the Aussie gov't takes to it but I know the USN would send a CVN battle group if they tried to go after the Houston for salvage.

I very much doubt that the US government is willing to harm diplomatic over what is basically a rusted hulk. Just as the Austrailian government wasn't willing.

Such is the way the world works. If it makes you feel better to think that America would rattle the sabre over the infringment of a single wreck, then do so.

[jcjordan]

My point is that the USN is more possessive/protective over wrecks. You need to look no further than the a/c being recovered in areas like Lake Michigan where there's not a body involved at all yet they still retain/guard ownership of it. Yes they give permission to recover a/c wrecks if no known casualties are involved. In the case of Houston, I'd bet they would come down very hard on someone trying to salvage anything from it w/o expressed permission

[tk208]

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Doing things that are both wrong and stupid are not the fault of the one who raises the alarm.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My point is that the USN is more possessive/protective over wrecks. You need to look no further than the a/c being recovered in areas like Lake Michigan where there's not a body involved at all yet they still retain/guard ownership of it. Yes they give permission to recover a/c wrecks if no known casualties are involved. In the case of Houston, I'd bet they would come down very hard on someone trying to salvage anything from it w/o expressed permission

Were I an American taxpayer, I'd object to my tax dollars being spent chasing down South-East Asian salvage operations.

Even if the USN wants to take a stance, they could complain to whatever government is responsible, and have them do nothing.

Or they could board and stop the salvage on some pretext, kicking off a diplomatic crisis, and at which point the Chinese swing in to play the good guy.

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Yes, let's go and bomb some South-East Asians, to punish them for stealing the metal from our ships!!!

Good to see you approve of the American government illegal international spying operation. It frames your previous views rather nicely.

[f4migcap]

I don't have a problem fundamentally if they were just trying to get a ships bell, or wheel, to bring up and display at some memorial. But to dredge up a whole sub, like the Dutch O-16, so they could scrap it completely for metal, I have a little problem with that. I'm sure relatives of the Dutch sailors wouldn't be very happy either if they find out. I wonder what reaction we would have in this country if some country hauled up a complete US sub sunk in the war, just for its metal. I know it probably can't be stopped, its just kind of sickening.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: JAK63

I don't have a problem fundamentally if they were just trying to get a ships bell, or wheel, to bring up and display at some memorial. But to dredge up a whole sub, like the Dutch O-16, so they could scrap it completely for metal, I have a little problem with that. I'm sure relatives of the Dutch sailors wouldn't be very happy either if they find out. I wonder what reaction we would have in this country if some country hauled up a complete US sub sunk in the war, just for its metal. I know it probably can't be stopped, its just kind of sickening.

So you feel the same way about the WW1 battlefields that were cleared of dead bodies and ordinance just so that some Belgian or French farmers could plant crops again to make a living?