Chinese map and Japanese set up

[Klydon]

The map for China is something sort of unique for MWiF, so any pet strategy/set up most had is out the door from the table top.

To me, it is very difficult for the Japanese really to accomplish anything in any meaningful amount of time without running some big risks.

At any rate, here is my set up. Not having a usual Chinese setup to work with, this is fairly close to what I think is ok.

Pretty much all the optional rules are in play that matter here and that includes unlimited breakdown and Nationalist attack weakness (attack at half strength).

The Japanese setup includes the ability to pull in all units from Japan over the first turn. (I typically start with a naval, put the transports out and suck all the troops out of Japan and land them the following turn in China).

I had been sending Yamamoto and the bulk of the troops coming over from Japan down south, but I have not really been getting anywhere doing that between bad weather and the Chinese slowing my advance by a very slow with-drawl. This set up sort of leaves Canton on its own while I plan on using more troops up north to try to accomplish something.

To me, the Communist section is the real danger as they will get most of the re-enforcements.

At any rate, the idea with this setup is to break down 3-4 corps (this one has 3) and use the divisions where the Nationalists can't get a good shot on them to help form up a more solid line and also provide some forces to actually do something with.

In my set up, I also pull the HQ out of Manchuria along with the motorized infantry. (You can see the motorized infantry on the border). The HQ is railed in on the second Japanese impulse when they take a land and is used to put the units along the northern part of the front into supply.

This is sort of a primer for a discussion on this topic (setups for the Japanese and Chinese using the new map).

[brian brian]

The Japanese hold the strategic initiative. They should concentrate their forces and attack the Chinese on the axis of their choice, for as long as they can. Forming a nice Japanese line dilutes their forces too much.

[Centuur]

As the Chinese, you have some choices to make. It is important to keep your forces available to you and try to keep them alive. If you are setting up the Chinese as you did, my answer as the Japanese would be to concentrate on killing as much units as I can in the first impulse, since they are mainly in clear hexes sitting on there own. That is a dangerous set up, because it is going to cost you an awful lot of casualties.

It is better to let the Japanese advance towards the mountains, stretching his supply lines and see if you are going to be able to get units behind enemy lines...

[Hokum]

I agree with Brian. Unless you plan a defensive war in China, you must decide if your first short-term objective will be Changsha or Si'an and deploy accordingly. I am assuming from your set-up you are playing with Chinese nationalist weakness, to each his own, but that's actually another good incentive for your to keep your forces together.

On the other side, Chinese forces can safely ignore the Hubei (the province between chang-sha and Si'an) and deploy to either one of those two objectives. There's no way the Japanese will cross it, there would be too many supply problems. Just keep a few mobile forces (CAV) there to remember the Japanese he must keep a reserve against incursions. Stack two units per hex too, if the Japanese decides to attack an hex, you must make sure it can kill one of its units or flip them.

[vicberg]

Remember that JP gets an HQ (Terauchi) starting in Manchuria. He's a 3 mover. It's typical that the HQ and MOT in Manchuria line up next to China and move south. On the MWIF map, on the second impulse, the north will be in supply. Alternatively, the starting China HQ (Umezu) can start in the north and Terauchi can rail into the middle.

JP starts with 2 MARS, Yamamoto a MIL and GUN in Japan. It's typical for them to ship into Canton and move up to secure the southern China resources. I don't see that changing a whole lot even on these maps.

Your setup seems to be focused on holding territory on both sides. Territory doesn't matter. Resources, Factories and rail lines (for Japan) are all that matter. Cities like Nanyang may seem important as they can be supply sources for the Chinese. But nothing can get there quickly across mountains and forests. So it really isn't important. If China defends the middle, they will get slaughtered. Chinese troops can't stand up for a minute against Japanese forces in the clear.

No one is pushing through the desert in the north. Forget about it. The battle in the north is identical to WIF. Sian is the focus for defense and attack and nothing else up there matters. In the middle, the goal is Changsha, same as WIF. In the south, push up and secure the resources.

I have to wonder if this map actually favors the Japanese, at least in early stages of the war. Yes, China can make some incursions, easily dealt with. But the Japanese ARM and MECH can finally be useful! If China defends anything but their mountains, they may find it hard to survive.

[Klydon]

I guess I don't know enough of the dangers (or have the confidence with the Japanese) to see many of the issues that others are seeing. The Japanese simply do not start with enough troops in China to put a push on anywhere without leaving over half the theater devoid of troops. This includes bringing in the home island troops as well.

Against the Chi-Coms, you need at least 24 factors to get a crummy 3-1 on the assault table. If you are willing to risk those sorts of attacks early and on a regular basis, then just roll some dice and decide the game that way.

The Nationalists are a bit exposed on the river, but an alternative is to pull them back a bit to the mountains in the north. As long as they provide some flank protection until some more Chi-coms enter the game, then its all good. They have to put some pressure on the Japanese flank early to keep the Japanese from ganging up on the Chi-coms (which is what I see in a lot of AAR's).

Good point on the Hubei, however that nets the Japanese very little strength back (maybe 1 army and a division) while the Chinese save 3-4 units to double stack elsewhere to make it even tougher on the Japanese.

I have been shoving everything I can in the south. With Yamamoto and the two marine units, that is 18 points worth of guys. Granted, this is the first set up I have put a big unit there to start with and perhaps that is part of the key, but it is still very slow going against those 3 guys in the south. Way too easy for the Chinese to play games with Pei river. (I typically send the engineer down to help as well). The Japanese have to maneuver to try to get enough factors to get a good attack and when they finally look like they get set up for it, the Chinese back up a bit causing the Japanese to go through it again. In addition, either the Chinese units are doubled on defense or Japanese air is halved due to the trees and the Japanese almost never get a chance to use full strength of their units because of the river.

In my current game, (May-June 41), I still don't have the resource down south and I don't have Changsha either, although it will soon fall. It doesn't really matter for the Japanese as they are not set at all to do anything as far as land conquest in the Pacific and the US is on the verge of being able to declare war. Japanese resources stand at around 11 points right now, so they are way behind on builds, etc.

I would love to see some of the other set ups out there and I will be tinkering with mine some more, but I guess the Japanese see too many Chinese boogeymen.

[Sabre21]

I would be pretty happy to see a Chinese setup like that shown above if I was playing the Japanese. They would be out of the picture by the end of the 2nd turn. Chinese in the open die all too easily.

[Klydon]

Sorry, I don't see it.

Perhaps someone can use this Chinese set up and then show how they would set up the Japanese against it.

[vicberg]

Because it's spread out, you have to focus as the Japanese. There's quite a few choices. My goal would be to kill 2 pieces an impulse (or more) each turn. A few choice spots and the Chinese will face being surrounded or they will have to retreat and they have crap movement.

In the middle, the 3-2 that's to the northeast of the CH FTR and the 1-3 CH div to the east of Ichang look like juicy targets. The 8 and 6 corp with the 3-2 ARTY can move just to the east of it and attack at 6-1, not including ground support. 2 6 corp and the other ARTY can attack the DIV across the river at 8-1. aTemauchi would rail down to provide supply. Obviously JP fighters would be there to intercept the CH fighter. 2 good attacks, low chance of being flipped and that would cut the chinese forces in two. A couple of low level JP units would provide flank support and insure lines of communication (supply). Let the chinese go into the interior in other places. They will get isolated destroyed. Makes the japanese job easier as chinese in the mountains are tough. Chinese in the open are easy to kill. Chinese production is pathetic and won't be able to keep up with the piece kills. After these attacks, China will have to withdrawl with their pathetic movement rates, or risk being killed in detail. Good chances to get more attacks on single units.

I'd set up the rest in the north, including Umezu and the MOT would move down from Manchuria to attack Sian. First targets are anything that allows 3 hex attacks, so the 2 Communist corp in the mountains, either north or east of Mao. However, those 2 strength CH nationality units across the water are easy targets as well.

[vicberg]

Actually Terauchi couldn't make it all the way as I notice there's a road and not a rail into the true middle. So I'd start Umezu there and move Terauchi down from Manchuria to the north China front.

There's so many other ways to attack this. Thinking about it some more. I'd do the middle attack as I described in prior post follow by an attack in the North across the Yellow River against the 2-2 MIL that's 2 hexes east of Tungwang (I guess that's the name. Can't see the whole name).

These attacks would
1) Isolate that 3-1 gar to the east of the 2-2 MIL, so that would die next impulse. Force a pull back by the 4-3, 3-3 INF and 3-4 CAV in between my two pincer attacks (middle and north) or risk being cutoff and killed in detail. The 2-4 CAV next to Tungwang would have to withdrawl. I'd eventually get a 4 hex attack against the Lan CHow MIL in the mountain, so it would have to withdrawl without a fight. My JP forces from Japan would move towards Hengyang from Canton and threaten the remaining units around Changsha.

So Chinese forces would be cut into north around Sian, middle around Nanyang and threatened with isolation around Changsha. So China would have to retreat in mass ANYWAY with this defense. Might as well give it all up, as most experienced WIF players do with WIF version of the map and defend the mountains. Won't lose 4-6 pieces in the process.

[WarHunter]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
Sorry, I don't see it.
Perhaps someone can use this Chinese set up and then show how they would set up the Japanese against it.

Would it be possible to see a screen shot of the options you currently play with? Different options make for different gambits.

thanks

[vicberg]

There aren't really many options that affect China, other than Chinese attack weakness and off-city reinforcements. I play with 2D10, divs, etc., standard stuff. What option would change what gambit here?

The point I'm trying to make is that Japan builds for China for the first year (and longer). So China is going to see more JP troops poring into China, including a probably MECH and/or ARM, which is done also to support a JP attack against Russia. Let China try to flank JP units. Who cares? As long as JP supply lines are maintained, these Chinese units WILL get killed. JP will push along rail lines and China needs to defend in mass to defend against that, much further back and ideally in mountains. It's there only hope. This type of spread out defense will get annihilated.

It takes minimal forces to defend a few rail lines from a flanking move. A JP HQ will draw 3 hexes from a rail line hex and then provide supply for another 4 hex from there. Plenty. The air power (though JP air power land based airplanes are poor compared to everyone else) alone is overwhelming.

The only real problem that I see with this map for JP (barring late game when JP is stretched thin) is partisans. Low level units will have to be held back to prevent a partisan from stopping up a rail line and cutting supply. That can even be mitigated once Changsha falls as there will be multiple lines into that area. Warlords help manage partisans (and keep China alive, but my understanding is that it hasn't been implemented yet). Partisans could be a problem on this map. But I see China's position on this map as being almost worse than the WIF version of the map. Far more terrain to defend. Easy for Japan to stack up and destroy individual pieces.

[Centuur]

Problem with Chinese units behind enemy lines is that they aren't that easy to kill, especially because of supply. Sure, the Japanese can withdraw an HQ from the frontline, but that is exactly what the Chinese want to happen. Time is ticking away and there is no attack on the Chinese frontline that turn...

[Klydon]

@ Warhunter: Unlimited divisional breakdowns, D10 with blitz option, no oil are the important ones. I do play with most all the optional rules, except for a few, however there are not a lot of them that directly affect the Chinese theater. I do play with the extra Chinese cities.

@ Vicberg: I appreciate your input on this topic. What odds do you call a good attack by the Japanese in this theater? The Lan Chow unit is a load to take out. Again, 24 Japanese factors may be doable for the 3-1, but they risk Mao taking a shot at HQ support and coming up with 32 factors is asking a lot. Attacking the Nationalist units across the river is an option for sure and why I hedged they could be pulled back a bit into the mountains. They need to provide the Chi-Coms flank protection a bit early until the Chi-Coms can get some units coming in. After that, the Nationalists are free to make their way south.

BTW, the 1-3 division is stacked with a 2 point division, so the combat strength is 3 for that hex. Sorry about that.

As far as landing in the south and then heading for Changsa, its tough against those 3 units given the forest, mountains and the Pei river. The Chinese can be outmaneuvered and forced to give ground, but it is just really slow going. Part of this goes back to what is an acceptable attack and where you just say a person is depending more on luck at low odds than anything else.

[WarHunter]

Vicberg, I appreciate your point of view. Its just that i have a different one.

Before us is a screenshot. There are certainly many things we can take at face value. But there is no certainty as to the options in play. The options you feel are standard, are well your standard.

I dont play with Chinese attack weakness. I do play with off-city reinforcements. I don't play with 2D10. I do play with 1D10 and Blitz bonus. Some other options i play with that are standard for me.

Motorized Movement Rates, Railway Movement, HQ Movement, Variable Reorganization Costs, Scrap Units.

That last one, Scrap units. When scrapping units for Japan, the 2-3 arty is always taken out. I find it a sub-standard arty unit. But there it is in the screenshot. Either scrapping is in and Kyldon, sees the unit as having worth. Or its not in play.

If i'm going to game the Chinese setup, i'd like to recreate it as faithfully as possible. I can oly take it so far though. As the random pick of units will likely never be the same.

As far as breaking down Japanese units, Max 1 corp breakdown at start. Any more is a dilution in power at start.

On face value the weakest point of the Chinese line is the 3-2 army in the center. The Japanese can take a Combined with excellent chances of killing it. From there its just a matter of rolling the Chinese line, as they try and flee to better defensive terrain. And with the anemic movement, that's not so fast. Better to not have the 3-2 in that hex.

One other thing about combat. With the 1D10 we're looking at a 7-1. With the 2D10 we're looking at +14. The chances of the Chinese player picking the Blitz table with the 1D10, never ever. The chances of Getting blitz table with 2D10, is at least a thought of survival.

I just want to know the options in play to make adjustments for my comfort zone. Which is not so comforting to others.

thanks for the conversation.

[Klydon]

Scrapping is in. I don't typically scrap artillery for the most part at the start of the 39 game. I probably don't use artillery as well as most do in that I will almost never use it to try to disrupt. I use it as an extra attacker and also as a threat in defensive support. To start out with here, it is to occupy the mountain hex to the SE.

I also play with motorized movement, railway movement, HQ movement, but do not play variable reorg.

[WarHunter]

I'd like to make a note about the Chinese force pool at start.

The Japanese have 3 militia units in play that are near irreplaceable.

Peking, Canton and Shanghai.

If found to be on the front line. These 3 units should be hunted down ruthlessly. Make plans to attack them or encircle. Run them down if in open terrain. Even a bloody exchange should be considered a victory.

Japan can rebuild the loss. The loss of the militia creates vacuum.

[vicberg]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Problem with Chinese units behind enemy lines is that they aren't that easy to kill, especially because of supply. Sure, the Japanese can withdraw an HQ from the frontline, but that is exactly what the Chinese want to happen. Time is ticking away and there is no attack on the Chinese frontline that turn...

You're bringing up a good point. Chinese units behind lines could become a problem with Chinese cities being a supply source. I think a decent JP ZOC defense could keep them at bay for quite a while.

I do wonder if these maps have unbalanced a game in which efforts to balance it have gone on for 20+ years. It takes minimal corp plus guns, etc., to keep China at bay for a long time with standard WIF maps. Is that possible on these maps? Probably not and Japan doesn't have the counters to deal with it. Increasing the size of the maps without an increase in counters could have some unintended affects. These large maps may force JP players to focus on collapsing China or knocking them down to almost no production every game. That may remove some strategic options from Japan. The other side of this is a good JP attack against an early China could create a collapse or reduced production. Won't know until it's played.

The other way to balance these maps might be to not play with the extra cities. Reduced cities may reduce the terrain to defend and the ability for China to run around at will.

On WIF maps, I routinely take 3-2 and might get a 2-1 against a Chinese stack in the mountains. With a flip or two, it's a decent chance to win the battle. On standard maps, taking 1 hex a turn is usually considered a good turn.

[vicberg]

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Vicberg, I appreciate your point of view. Its just that i have a different one.

Before us is a screenshot. There are certainly many things we can take at face value. But there is no certainty as to the options in play. The options you feel are standard, are well your standard.

I dont play with Chinese attack weakness. I do play with off-city reinforcements. I don't play with 2D10. I do play with 1D10 and Blitz bonus. Some other options i play with that are standard for me.

Motorized Movement Rates, Railway Movement, HQ Movement, Variable Reorganization Costs, Scrap Units.

That last one, Scrap units. When scrapping units for Japan, the 2-3 arty is always taken out. I find it a sub-standard arty unit. But there it is in the screenshot. Either scrapping is in and Kyldon, sees the unit as having worth. Or its not in play.

If i'm going to game the Chinese setup, i'd like to recreate it as faithfully as possible. I can oly take it so far though. As the random pick of units will likely never be the same.

As far as breaking down Japanese units, Max 1 corp breakdown at start. Any more is a dilution in power at start.

On face value the weakest point of the Chinese line is the 3-2 army in the center. The Japanese can take a Combined with excellent chances of killing it. From there its just a matter of rolling the Chinese line, as they try and flee to better defensive terrain. And with the anemic movement, that's not so fast. Better to not have the 3-2 in that hex.

One other thing about combat. With the 1D10 we're looking at a 7-1. With the 2D10 we're looking at +14. The chances of the Chinese player picking the Blitz table with the 1D10, never ever. The chances of Getting blitz table with 2D10, is at least a thought of survival.

I just want to know the options in play to make adjustments for my comfort zone. Which is not so comforting to others.

thanks for the conversation.

Well, I always choose assault even if playing the Chinese. Blitz can preserve your troops but has a might higher chance of keep JP units face up for combat. Also, units retreat and flip more often, making it easier to kill them. It's a trade off.

I NEVER scrap ARTY because ARTY is never sub-standard. It can ground strike and can ground support it's hex or hexes adjacent to it. It's HUGE.

[vicberg]

With these maps, I'm wondering if you almost have to play with Chinese Attack Weakness. With standard maps, the Nationalists can start popping off too many attacks too early in the war and help wear the Japanese down. With attack weakness on the standard maps, the war quickly becomes a historical stalemate after the 2 southern resources, Sian and Changsha are secured by the Japanese.

Having this massive front for the Chinese to pore through, playing WITHOUT attack weakness could make them way too strong and completely unbalance the game. Again, time will tell.