Pelton vs Kelblau 1.07.11 game over Resigned T-14

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Being new to this game, I find myself needing to study this spectacular panzer tactic more. Are there more AAR examples of this tactic.

Any of MT's, Bomazz, Sapers and my AAR's.

But the air drop rules changed after .10 so only the newest one's are in line with newest logistics.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, a truly forward Soviet defense is impossible under the present ruleset against any kind of first class opponent. So, no, you can't just impose an August sudden death check and leave it at that. This would merely result in the Red Army being destroyed in August and then the Wehrmacht driving east against scattered opposition until mud.

I'm perfectly willing in principle to change the victory conditions here provided:

1. A replacement system that can actually absorb historical losses.
2. Alterations in the surprise turn.
3. Elimination of the HQ buildup.

Then, yes. By all means, make the Red Army stand its ground and die if it has the tools to do so. Otherwise, you're just creating a glorified victory parade here for the Axis.

August SD is MT's idea not mine.

Forward defence in south is simply not possible and clearly foolish

Center just past land bridge and around Lake Ilmen can be a steel wall.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

I belive the Lvov opening is the key. If the strongest troops (mostly 4-7 CV Tank divisions) will be encicred at the first turn, the soviet defense really gets a huge blow.

Those strong troops are very important to secure, and slow the german advace.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, a truly forward Soviet defense is impossible under the present ruleset against any kind of first class opponent. So, no, you can't just impose an August sudden death check and leave it at that. This would merely result in the Red Army being destroyed in August and then the Wehrmacht driving east against scattered opposition until mud.

I'm perfectly willing in principle to change the victory conditions here provided:

1. A replacement system that can actually absorb historical losses.
2. Alterations in the surprise turn.
3. Elimination of the HQ buildup.

Then, yes. By all means, make the Red Army stand its ground and die if it has the tools to do so. Otherwise, you're just creating a glorified victory parade here for the Axis.

Its basicly impossible even without a huge Lvov pocket to slow german advances until turn 4 or 5.

That's when the better SHC players understanding of things shows it self.

[Flaviusx]

Well, Michael does have a certain point about SD. A forward defense is what Stalin wanted and forced on the Red Army in 1941, with disastrous results. A number of very excellent wargames have such SD systems. (Proud Monster did this very well.) But many other things need to be changed in order to make this work.

[Callistrid]

On south you can't slow the german. But on center and north yes. A 7 CV strong unit in forest terrarian is doubled. Plus the fortification...

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

I belive the Lvov opening is the key. If the strongest troops (mostly 4-7 CV Tank divisions) will be encicred at the first turn, the soviet defense really gets a huge blow.

Those strong troops are very important to secure, and slow the german advace.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, a truly forward Soviet defense is impossible under the present ruleset against any kind of first class opponent. So, no, you can't just impose an August sudden death check and leave it at that. This would merely result in the Red Army being destroyed in August and then the Wehrmacht driving east against scattered opposition until mud.

I'm perfectly willing in principle to change the victory conditions here provided:

1. A replacement system that can actually absorb historical losses.
2. Alterations in the surprise turn.
3. Elimination of the HQ buildup.

Then, yes. By all means, make the Red Army stand its ground and die if it has the tools to do so. Otherwise, you're just creating a glorified victory parade here for the Axis.

Its basicly impossible even without a huge Lvov pocket to slow german advances until turn 4 or 5.

That's when the better SHC players understanding of things shows it self.

[Michael T]

I am not talking about a suicidal Forward Defence. But before going on lets put it in context. ATM its common knowledge that if the Soviet is a competent player and runs unmolested to a point where he can form a wall it's pretty much game over even with Lvov. So IMO the game needs a set of SD in August or even September that stops this ploy. And forces the Soviet to fight *further* west than the norm now. Not so restrictive that it leaves no room for error but enough to allow some nice victories for the Axis that weakens the Soviet Army to the extent that the game does not become WWI in September 1941. That is all that's needed.

As the Quid Pro Quo also add a SD for the Germans at the end of Dec 1941 that is geared to prevent a German runaway in the early part of the blizzard.

So essentially the 1941 SD are designed as a mechanic to force upon the players the unsound strategic shackles imposed by Hitler and Stalin. This idea is nothing new. Many EF games have a similar mechanic.

For those who want a more historical game this is what you need. You cannot escape the political interference the leaders imposed upon the military. To ignore it is nonsensical.

[Peltonx]

Ok stop using the big words.

Us grunts can only understand 4 to 5 letter words, 6 max for the smarter 1s

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

As the Quid Pro Quo also add a SD for the Germans at the end of Dec 1941 that is geared to prevent a German runaway in the early part of the blizzard.

but the revised blizzard means there is no need for an across the front run away

[gingerbread]

If the Soviets have to stand, then the Axis rail repair rate should be lowered until 4/42. When the Soviets kicked of their Kharkov offensive in '42, the rail was barely past D-town.

Alternatively needs a HR that AGC cannot be supplied through Latvia nor can AGS be supplied through Rumania.

[Flaviusx]

Pelton, he's using small latin words. (I know some big ones, and these are much scarier.)

MT, no dice until logistics and other things change for me. I don't think you fully appreciate how accelerated the op momentum is, and this isn't because of Soviet runaways, it's because the game needs to slow the hell down. It would be crazy to impose SD mid summer 1941 until that is tamed.

And the fragility of the replacement situation allows for no great room for error, which translates to not making any premature stands. You really cannot afford to throw away forces in this game in the way it was done in real life.

[Michael T]

Well how do you propose to get a competitive game out of this? Because ATM its still a solid Soviet win between evenly matched players.

Whatever happens I really hope the devs address this runaway BS in WITE 2.0. It really sucks.

[Flaviusx]

Let's give the new blizzard a chance before concluding this is an auto soviet win now. My sense is that for all the problems the game has that it is just about at the point where it can deliver a draw between equal players. There's some swap logic problems that still need resolving for the Axis.

I just don't think you can change up the alleged runaway in 41 at this point because it's a product of a lot of different moving parts that all need looking at. So, yeah, I am throwing up my hands and surrendering as far as this goes to WITE 2.0. 41 needs totally fresh look.

If it gets that fresh look then your SD idea becomes much more possible and interesting.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Well how do you propose to get a competitive game out of this? Because ATM its still a solid Soviet win between evenly matched players.

Whatever happens I really hope the devs address this runaway BS in WITE 2.0. It really sucks.

Solid Soviet win. Based on what? I still don't see the Soviets getting to Berlin with any regularity. Look how Terje successfully defended his way to game's end even with a weak opening. That wasn't a solid Soiet win.

[Michael T]

You don't see many Red flags over Berlin because the Axis give up way before then. Whereas most Soviets will play on until Moscow falls.

[Peltonx]

Guys there are 4 or 5 very good German players and probably 20 very good SHC.

The 5 best GHC will NEVER get a win vs the 20 only a tie at best. The run in south, all north building to Oka is becoming more and more normal even for newbies.
The newbies just don't know all the little tricks of the trade yet and when they fail to block the right hook its a slaughter.


The best 5 GHC can defeat any of the non 20ish in 42, making the game look lopsided when it is clearly not.

Most of the people playing GHC get slaughtered during 41 and the game is a bore, I don't know how many people I have played claiming to have won 3-8 games by September as SHC Bozo being the latest.

It is far to easy all things being equal for newer people one being GHC and one being SHC for the SHC to win in a very boring manner.

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL THE GHC PLAYER HAS ZERO HOPE OF EVEN REACHING THE HISTORICAL LINES OF OCTOBER 1941.

This is simply the facts of the matter.

[Flaviusx]

Pelton, learning curve is higher for the Axis, fewer people have mastered them. But if the best Axis consistently draws against the best Sovs, well...that's balance, yes? (Better yet is if this happens at all skill levels.)

Again, let's see how this new blizzard plays out. The nice thing about this new blizzard is it helps extend games, rather than making 41 such an all or nothing proposition where if the Axis doesn't score the near knock out blow they get creamed during the winter.

Once the swap logic issues are fixed, this is probably a good place to call it a wrap until 2.0.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, learning curve is higher for the Axis, fewer people have mastered them. But if the best Axis consistently draws against the best Sovs, well...that's balance, yes? (Better yet is if this happens at all skill levels.)

Again, let's see how this new blizzard plays out. The nice thing about this new blizzard is it helps extend games, rather than making 41 such an all or nothing proposition where if the Axis doesn't score the near knock out blow they get creamed during the winter.

Once the swap logic issues are fixed, this is probably a good place to call it a wrap until 2.0.

I agree.

My game with saper will be a good test, but I thk the good GHC guys might just have one more card to play.

I am hoping Bozo is as good as top 20 peeps, it very hard to judge because so many people seem to be doing the right stuff but have not master it yet and things fall apart very fast around turn 10.

[Flaviusx]

I don't know if this going all in with the panzer ball in 41 is going to work out, tbh. Seems to me this simplifies the Soviet defensive situation. Having to defend against multiple possible panzer concentration in 41 really stretches things out for the Red Army.

The thing I would fear more here would be a credible threat against Leningrad tied to a strong advance in the center once the rail lines catch up to Smolensk or so. Deemphasize the south once it is clear the Soviet has that and the evacuation under control. Swing most of PG1 north once you reach Stalino and work your way behind Bryansk from the south. But you know more about handling the Axis than me, so...

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I don't know if this going all in with the panzer ball in 41 is going to work out, tbh. Seems to me this simplifies the Soviet defensive situation. Having to defend against multiple possible panzer concentration in 41 really stretches things out for the Red Army.

The thing I would fear more here would be a credible threat against Leningrad tied to a strong advance in the center once the rail lines catch up to Smolensk or so. Deemphasize the south once it is clear the Soviet has that and the evacuation under control. Swing most of PG1 north once you reach Stalino and work your way behind Bryansk from the south. But you know more about handling the Axis than me, so...

AGN basicly gets over the Pskov T-2. Then pushes here and there until turn 4 does a HQBU then a thrust is made, if SHC defences are average then its game over basicly as Leningrad falls quickly and panzers are released T-7 and the rail line that loops down to Moscow is the killer for Moscow falling not the right hook over the Oka.

AGC is a complete bore until turn 7 or 8

AGS is a back water, but 100% goal #1 for GHC, if your going to get a draw u need the manpower centers and space for the draw.

AGN can release 7 panzers t-6 or 7 if they hit a wall in north and pound it out and probably still get Leningrad late with just 3 Mech divisions.
AGS can release 6 divisions turn 10ish

AGC panzer ball.

[Peltonx]

Thanks for the game.