Speedy's Japanese war discussion

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ORIGINAL: MrKane

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Thanks Mr.Kane

Interesting. A few thoughts my end:

Ki-44-IIc - Must have it as soon as possible. Very good fighters until '44, I am still holding Burma with it and some help from small amount Ki-84.

Kind of begins fading fast in late 44. Be ready with lots of Frank 'r' then.

Ki-84a - skip it go for next - b version is not nominally out until 3/45 so a big wait (excluding R&D advances though). Surely best to go for a version and get that a few months earlier then work on b version?

I never got to use the 'b' but it has centerline Ho-5 cannon and is the best late war bomber-killer according to many. Still worth a few factories.

The next is Ki-84r, you cannot covert Ki-84a factory to Ki-84b. B version is nice but It cannot be advance to early '44, but R version can.
Ki-84r - real air-superiority fighter, great as offensive weapon, hard to keep fly, but in 44/45 it is the best you can have

Ki-100-II - go strait for it, just skip all R&D Ki-61, quite capable replacement for K-44-IIc - Maybe I'm mistaken but with this being the last end of the Tony line (which I agree don't plan to go for) wouldn't I need to research the earlier Tony's first to be able to move the facs along the chain without penalty?
nop, you need first R&D factory Ki-61a then you can convert it to Ki-61b then to next, next ... You do not need complete R&D to move to next airframe

Not sure what you're saying here, Mr Kane? You skip all R n D after the first version, and convert in succession all factories at that point without having to repair them and then are immediately researching the Ki-100 in 43???[&:] If that is possible why not get the A6M8 researching in 42 too?

In my experience, although I haven't tried what I think he is implying, you research each version and once it's fully researched you can go forward to start researching the next. You have to be careful the factories don't convert to production which has happened to me. If you can skip these steps my eyebrows would go up quite far!

Ki-119 - I discounted it due to it's very short range mainly?

It's either this, the early war LB (which also have short range) or converting to 2E groups and using those. I find they are good to target if they take off. High durability means they get through and make big bang!

IJN ...

Fighters
-----------

A6M2
A6M3
A6M3a
A6M5
you can stop here

(???)

I would certainly keep going since you already have the research there, as the A6M5b and 5c are both better the the 5. [/quote]

A6M5b
A6M5c


Surely A6M5c is worth it due to the armour and preservation of pilots?
You need zeros for carriers mostly, and A6m5 will do much better due to speed. A6m5c is just easy target for F6F and with durability 27 armor will not safe day for you

Not exactly. The 5c is a great for escort where staying power is better with armor. With a mix of 5b and 5c I've found the KB pilots can still get the bombers through on occasion. The 5 is good, but not as good, so wy stop when the next upgrades are free?

N1K1-J - skip it got for N1K2-J - Maybe once more I'm misunderstanding the R&D fac advance but wouldn't it be better to for N1K1 as facs can move on to N1K2 free of charge?
I mean skip R&D, not factory building, ofc you need build factories and convert to N1K2-J.
N1K2-J - good fighter for 43 & 44, can fight do good against all expect p-47

Also, I like the Jack as it has better climb but is almost identical to George otherwise. The J2M3 makes a great escort with drop tanks and in the late war it uses an engine not used by a bunch of other planes, the Ha-32.


P1Y3 - good point. No Okha so removed from my list.

Thanks for thoughts and advice [8D]
[/quote]

And one more advice, I have invested a lot of resources for high quality pilots training program ( 60% of my air groups ). Now in '44 it really paid off.

[/quote]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Thanks Pax.

After thinking on this overnight (and I think even possibly dreaming of plane options and combinations) I'm getting clearer as to what I'll be researching now so thanks for all the advice (I'll post a full list in due course).

Now follow up questions, relating to Pax's comment about over expanding factories, is it best/feasible to put in motion (change/expand to size 30 etc) all of your R&D plants on turn 1 to what you want them to be OR do you have to wait and do this over the period of a few months due to supply etc?

No, you will first have to increase supply to every city with airframe and engine factories. There is not enough supply in most to make the changes you'll need, and not enough supply in general to do all of it right away.

Next question is regarding industry as a whole. What's the consensus on what industry to expand and by roughly how much? Also, if you do expand I assume you wait for a few months until supply is more plentiful.

Surprise!! There is no consensus! [:)]

Some say never increase HI/LI. Others say it's okay to increase a bit of HI and possibly more LI.

It also depends on what you're planning. Going for an AV in 43? Don't increase anything, just plow forward and plan to send most of your supply to the front and spend most of your HI on planes and troops.

If you want to see 46 and are playing the long game, then maybe it's a good idea to increase at least LI in the Home Islands and possibly in closer Manchuria and China. Plan to defend anything in B-29 range with everything you have though, and built a ton of NF, make sure flak is HEAVY in Tokyo and Osaka especially, and cross your fingers, make sacrifices to the Gods, and wear your lucky socks (every day for the entire game!).

I'm beginning to really like the Japanese side - a lot more planning, thought and intricacy needed!

It's pretty interesting and the fact that you can customize to your style of play is great. The trouble is you won't know what to really do in 42 until you've played through once to 45! [:)]

[Speedysteve]

Hi obvert,

It would be good to clarity on this as I've been tweaking my production plan based on yesterday's post.

I had assumed (based on advice) the method is as such.

Assume you want to get the Ki-100-II.

You then research the first plane in that line = set 30 x Fac size to R&D Ki-61-Ia. Once it's repaired you should be able change to the next version in the Tony line and repeat and rinse down to the Ki-100-II model.

I assume this is the case rather than what I originally thought (which was that you researched the next plane down the line and when that was close to arriving you moved the facs to R&D the next version, when that was near to production you then moved to the next model etc etc)?

If not it b*ggers my plane plans and I'll have to go back to the drawing board [;)]

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Thanks Pax.

After thinking on this overnight (and I think even possibly dreaming of plane options and combinations) I'm getting clearer as to what I'll be researching now so thanks for all the advice (I'll post a full list in due course).

Now follow up questions, relating to Pax's comment about over expanding factories, is it best/feasible to put in motion (change/expand to size 30 etc) all of your R&D plants on turn 1 to what you want them to be OR do you have to wait and do this over the period of a few months due to supply etc?

No, you will first have to increase supply to every city with airframe and engine factories. There is not enough supply in most to make the changes you'll need, and not enough supply in general to do all of it right away.

Next question is regarding industry as a whole. What's the consensus on what industry to expand and by roughly how much? Also, if you do expand I assume you wait for a few months until supply is more plentiful.

Surprise!! There is no consensus! [:)]

Some say never increase HI/LI. Others say it's okay to increase a bit of HI and possibly more LI.

It also depends on what you're planning. Going for an AV in 43? Don't increase anything, just plow forward and plan to send most of your supply to the front and spend most of your HI on planes and troops.

If you want to see 46 and are playing the long game, then maybe it's a good idea to increase at least LI in the Home Islands and possibly in closer Manchuria and China. Plan to defend anything in B-29 with everything you have though, and built a ton of NF, make sure flak is HEAVY in Tokyo and Osaka especially, and cross your fingers, make sacrifices to the Gods, and wear your lucky socks (every day for the entire game!).

I'm beginning to really like the Japanese side - a lot more planning, thought and intricacy needed!

It's pretty interesting and the fact that you can customize to your style of play is great. The trouble is you won't know what to really do in 42 until you've played through once to 45! [:)]

Ok thanks. That helps.

I'm planning for the long game as it's scenario 1 so I won't expect an AV unless things go amazing. Part of this is the unknown as I've never played Japanese AE against my Dad before.

[1275psi]

I have not read the whole thread, but, too much discussion on planes guys, and all putting the cart before the horse

The most important unit, bar none, your torpedo capable air flottilla base forces

EVerything, your whole strategy, must be planned around these units, where they go, is what you think is the most important.
As soon as they get threatened, you must move them, to lose one is a disaster, to lose a few, war losing.

I have made 45, scene 1, pdu off
Against the most lethal ss player eva!

Immediately cancel all merchant building, convert to naval, accelerate your carriers.
You can build Musashi with this plan

But, even more vital, acelerate the E class, and all the T class fast transports, having buckets of these in 44 gives you flexibility that is critical.

Do not be too ambitious with land grabs

And finally, in 42 there is only 1 strategic objective.

You must bend heaven and earth to kill his carriers!

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Some people like to use them against unescorted bombers, but I just don't see unescorted bombers that often to warrant the group. Fighters are much more in need ... always short of fighter groups the entire war.

OZ is doable, but why? Really easy to get trapped there and lose a LOT of ID's.

India has been attempted several times, but not successfully yet. To be successful you need to take Bombay and Karachi early somehow with deep strikes. Again, you have to ask why, and then you also have to ask where you will find all of the garrison troops needed. Something like 3000 AV worth for India. However, taking Calcutta has been very profitable for me. I generally get +500,000 fuel/oil from that. It also allows me to repair and run the Magwe oil for 6-12 months which you otherwise can't do. Between the two, I net about 1M fuel which is huge boost for the IJ economy. Another bonus is that I usually am able to trash the Brit ID's, and with their low replacement rates effectively put them out of the war for 2 years.

My (limited) experience so far has been very different. I absolutely love the Nick. It is my only real 4E killer (as of mid 43) and actually fares quite well against enemy fighters. In fact, just the last turn, my opponent swept Magwe with Corsairs and P-38Gs. For only one loss, the Nicks shot down 3 or four Corsairs and a couple of Lightnings. 6:1 kill ratio against the best the allies have to offer isn't too bad.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

I have not read the whole thread, but, too much discussion on planes guys, and all putting the cart before the horse

The most important unit, bar none, your torpedo capable air flottilla base forces

EVerything, your whole strategy, must be planned around these units, where they go, is what you think is the most important.
As soon as they get threatened, you must move them, to lose one is a disaster, to lose a few, war losing.

Very important, yes. Only use the Flotilla versions forward where you can pull only with air transport. If you put the Air Army or Air Fleet units with mechanized support forward, you may lose those support units and never get them to marry up again, which sucks. I know both GJ and I have shown in our AARs where our interlocking air nodes are located in 43 for th defense of the DEI and other areas. This is really important, but not more than the planes that fly from them, necessarily.

I have made 45, scene 1, pdu off
Against the most lethal ss player eva!

Immediately cancel all merchant building, convert to naval, accelerate your carriers.
You can build Musashi with this plan

It costs a lot of supply, and you still might need some merchies as those build CVE, auxiliaries and TK/AO, of which the fast ones are definitely worth making some of anyway. I'm not saying you can't build Musashi, I'm saying it's not worth it! [:)]

Good to stop any transport slower than 15 knots, though. Build the xAPs.

But, even more vital, acelerate the E class, and all the T class fast transports, having buckets of these in 44 gives you flexibility that is critical.

Do not be too ambitious with land grabs

And finally, in 42 there is only 1 strategic objective.

You must bend heaven and earth to kill his carriers!

Didn't accelerate the Es, but I didn't really need to after the air ASW had decimated Allied subs. They do come in handy, but both the air ASW and the E are of course much better than the Japanese could have ever been. Still, it's your Dad, and you should go all out with every tool available!! [:D]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi obvert,

It would be good to clarity on this as I've been tweaking my production plan based on yesterday's post.

I had assumed (based on advice) the method is as such.

Assume you want to get the Ki-100-II.

You then research the first plane in that line = set 30 x Fac size to R&D Ki-61-Ia. Once it's repaired you should be able change to the next version in the Tony line and repeat and rinse down to the Ki-100-II model.

I assume this is the case rather than what I originally thought (which was that you researched the next plane down the line and when that was close to arriving you moved the facs to R&D the next version, when that was near to production you then moved to the next model etc etc)?

If not it b*ggers my plane plans and I'll have to go back to the drawing board [;)]

I can try what I think he is saying soon, so I'll let you know later today. I've got the Tony line fully repaired researching the Ib model in my 43 game, so if I can upgrade freely now to the Ki-100 it'll confirm what I think he is advocating. I've never seen anyone else do this though, including Pax, Mike Solli, GJ, or koniu. Pretty much all info i've seen says fully research EACH MODEL before switching to the next in line to make sure the factories do not need repair between them.

[Spidery]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi obvert,

It would be good to clarity on this as I've been tweaking my production plan based on yesterday's post.

I had assumed (based on advice) the method is as such.

Assume you want to get the Ki-100-II.

You then research the first plane in that line = set 30 x Fac size to R&D Ki-61-Ia. Once it's repaired you should be able change to the next version in the Tony line and repeat and rinse down to the Ki-100-II model.

I assume this is the case rather than what I originally thought (which was that you researched the next plane down the line and when that was close to arriving you moved the facs to R&D the next version, when that was near to production you then moved to the next model etc etc)?

If not it b*ggers my plane plans and I'll have to go back to the drawing board [;)]

I can try what I think he is saying soon, so I'll let you know later today. I've got the Tony line fully repaired researching the Ib model in my 43 game, so if I can upgrade freely now to the Ki-100 it'll confirm what I think he is advocating. I've never seen anyone else do this though, including Pax, Mike Solli, GJ, or koniu. Pretty much all info i've seen says fully research EACH MODEL before switching to the next in line to make sure the factories do not need repair between them.

I just verified that I can take a not yet researched A6M5 factory and change it, all in one turn, to the A6M5b, A6M5c and then A6M8 with it remaining fully repaired at size 30.

[Speedysteve]

Hi Guys,

Thanks [:)]

1275 psi. Good point on air flotilla BF's. Have to plan these when go through what units I'm assigning where.

Shipping - I'm halting Shinano, the last 4 x CVE and all not started AK's. I've accelerated the first 2 x Unryu and in due course will convert some MSY to NSY when I have supply in the future! Building all AP's as don't have many as is.

R&D - phew. Thanks for confirming Spidery. That's good to know. I'll post an amended plane list in a bit and I'll start to implement these plans today before moving onto LCU's and what I plan to send where!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Spidery

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi obvert,

It would be good to clarity on this as I've been tweaking my production plan based on yesterday's post.

I had assumed (based on advice) the method is as such.

Assume you want to get the Ki-100-II.

You then research the first plane in that line = set 30 x Fac size to R&D Ki-61-Ia. Once it's repaired you should be able change to the next version in the Tony line and repeat and rinse down to the Ki-100-II model.

I assume this is the case rather than what I originally thought (which was that you researched the next plane down the line and when that was close to arriving you moved the facs to R&D the next version, when that was near to production you then moved to the next model etc etc)?

If not it b*ggers my plane plans and I'll have to go back to the drawing board [;)]

I can try what I think he is saying soon, so I'll let you know later today. I've got the Tony line fully repaired researching the Ib model in my 43 game, so if I can upgrade freely now to the Ki-100 it'll confirm what I think he is advocating. I've never seen anyone else do this though, including Pax, Mike Solli, GJ, or koniu. Pretty much all info i've seen says fully research EACH MODEL before switching to the next in line to make sure the factories do not need repair between them.

I just verified that I can take a not yet researched A6M5 factory and change it, all in one turn, to the A6M5b, A6M5c and then A6M8 with it remaining fully repaired at size 30.

Holy Research, Batman!

Why have I not tried or known this?

Why would anyone build the earlier versions of anything if they could do this!

It does beg the question, is this okay? Should your opponent be aware you'll be by-passing normal research and getting a late 45 plane in early 44? I could potentially get the Ki-100 at almost the same time as the Ki-44 IIc. Or the Frank 'r' at the time the Frank 'a' usually arrives, in early-44.

It makes me think, well, how far do we go, and should these things be part of pre-game negotiations rather than simply open to player discretion when a lot of Allied players may not even really know what this kind of thing means?

[pws1225]

Man, this thread is like drinking from the proverbial JFB firehose. Good stuff!

[Spidery]

It makes me think, well, how far do we go, and should these things be part of pre-game negotiations rather than simply open to player discretion when a lot of Allied players may not even really know what this kind of thing means?

Some AARs have indicated limits on how far the players are willing to advance models. It has limited value if playing PDU OFF and I think it comes with the territory of playing PDU ON unless some restriction is agreed.

There is a cost to it in pushing the late models means longer without any model.

There aren't that many cases where it is that powerful. You need a good time-span between the first and last model and major differences in the aircraft values. Such as:

D4Y1 to D4Y4
Ki-61-1a to Ki-100-II
Ki-43-IIa to Ki-43-IV
P1Y1 to P1Y2

I thought it was fairly normal to do in limited ways, for example skipping the B6N1.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Spidery

It makes me think, well, how far do we go, and should these things be part of pre-game negotiations rather than simply open to player discretion when a lot of Allied players may not even really know what this kind of thing means?

Some AARs have indicated limits on how far the players are willing to advance models. It has limited value if playing PDU OFF and I think it comes with the territory of playing PDU ON unless some restriction is agreed.

There is a cost to it in pushing the late models means longer without any model.

There aren't that many cases where it is that powerful. You need a good time-span between the first and last model and major differences in the aircraft values. Such as:

D4Y1 to D4Y4
Ki-61-1a to Ki-100-II
Ki-43-IIa to Ki-43-IV
P1Y1 to P1Y2

I thought it was fairly normal to do in limited ways, for example skipping the B6N1.

You can skip early models. I don't always do that, especially not the Jill as 8/10 hex range for LBA and the better TT to 8 hexes for CV strikes is well worth the engine (the same used by the Ki-94 II). Late 42-mid-43 is often where the most stuff will happen that determines the rest of the game path. I want as much as possible to get the best airframes for that period even at the expense of earlier airframes in late war.

There is not much cost to it really, as if you wan the earlier model, you can still change over a factory you won't want in future. It's a supply cost you'd already have to pay.

The other question though is that when upgrading factories on this line, you will have to pay supply to change it to upgraded models if you want more than the R n D factories you've used. The Oscar IIb is a big upgrade as well, and the early Judys are pretty necessary, even with the service rating.

This is one of those things that just seems a bit funny, somehow.

[Speedysteve]

Hi Guys,

I feel I'm nearing the final cut of my plane list. I'm still not sure how much production/R&D I'll need of each type but a least it's a list I can work off of.

Fighters
----------

Army:

Ki-43-1c
Ki-44-IIa
Ki-44-IIc
Ki-84a
Ki-84r
Ki-83

Navy:

A6M2
A6M3
A6M3a
A6M5
A6M5c
A7M2
N1K2-J
J7W1

Fighter-Bombers:
------------------

Army:

Ki-45 KAIa
Ki-102b

Night-Fighters:
------------------

Army:

Ki-45 KAId
Ki-46-III KAI Dinah
Ki-102c

Navy:

J1N1-S
J1N1-Sa
C6N1-S

Dive-Bombers:
--------------

Navy:

D3A1
D4Y3
B7A2 (Torp bomber replacement really even though listed as a DB)

Level Bombers
---------------

Army:

Ki-32
Ki-21-IIa
Ki-49-IIa
Ki-67-Ia (T)
Ki-74-I
Ki-115b

Navy:

G4M1
G3M3
P1Y2

Recon:
---------

Army:

Ki-46-II
Ki-46-III

Navy:

C5M2
J1N1-C
C6N1

Transport:
------------

Army:

Ki-57-I
Ki-57-II
Ki-49-II KAI

Navy:

L3Y2
H6K4-L
H8K2-L
L2D2

Patrol:
---------

Navy:

H6K4
H6K5
H8K1
H8K2

Float Planes:
--------------

Navy:

E13A1
E14Y1
E15K1

Float Fighters:
-----------------

Navy:

A6M2-N

Torpedo Bombers:
-----------------

Navy:

B5N2
B6N2

[Speedysteve]

Just so I'm clear guys do you expand each of the R&D plants to size 30? I ask since most of them are currently in single figures = it will take 100,000's of supply to do this over the next few weeks!

[Spidery]

Just so I'm clear guys do you expand each of the R&D plants to size 30? I ask since most of them are currently in single figures = it will take 100,000's of supply to do this over the next few weeks!

The only ones I haven't are a few which I expect to roll over into production of niche aircraft and am not concerned about R&D progress (e.g., M6A1 Seiran, A6M2-N Rufe, D4Y1-C Judy) and don't think I will want to produce 30 a month.

[Speedysteve]

Ok thanks. I stand corrected it will cost c. 1.8M Supply to repair them all[:D]

[USSAmerica]

Great to see you around, Speedster! [8D]

This is the coolest part of this whole thread:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi Lemon - It's scenario 1 with PDU on. I'm playing against my Dad who has only played against the AI. As such I should have an edge on tactical play and I'm hoping an overall 'shock' effect for the capabilities of a human control Japanese effort for the first 6 months.

Playing a game against your Dad! Priceless! [&o][&o][&o]

[obvert]

Hey again. Just checked and yes, I've been sadly uninformed for a long time about the possibilities of R n D. Apologies to all if I've given erroneous advice.

It appears that most factories will upgrade using the official patch Scen 1 from a fully repaired R n D factory to the next model before R n D is completed for the next model. That can then lead up the chain to the end of the research line for that airframe/upgrade path!

One thing I found though, (and this is something I now remember from one of the games as well that I thought was somehow my mistake), the Tony line did not work. In trying to change from a 30 (0) factory researching the Tony Ib to the Tony Ic the factory went into shrinkage and disrepair. It's right at the bottom of the list here.

Any thoughts on that?

PS - To Speedy. I try to build all to 30 as you can see, but sometimes don't make it due to supply constraints, as with the George line.