Maginot Line
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Maginot Line
Alright you scholars out there. where can I find info on the Maginot line 1940 especially topo stuff?
Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"
Drex,
I'd start with doing a search on the Internet. After that you could always hit the Public Library. But Drex....the Maginot Line was never assaulted. The Germans came through Belgium and did an end run around and behind the Line. Frogs never figured they needed 360 degrees rotation on their gun emplacements ! The Maginot Line....a vast waste of millions of Francs for nothing !
DELTA 32
I'd start with doing a search on the Internet. After that you could always hit the Public Library. But Drex....the Maginot Line was never assaulted. The Germans came through Belgium and did an end run around and behind the Line. Frogs never figured they needed 360 degrees rotation on their gun emplacements ! The Maginot Line....a vast waste of millions of Francs for nothing !
DELTA 32
Von Mellenthin writes, in "Panzer Battles", "On 14 June the Maginot Line was penetrated south of Saarbrucken by the First Army . . . the Maginot defenses were breached in a few hours by an ordinary infantry attack, without any tank support whatever. The German infantry advanced under cover of a heavy air and artillery bonbardment in which lavish use was made of smoke shell. . . . a large number of positions had not been sited for all-around defense and were easy to attack from the blind side with grenades and flamethrowers."
Will this dont sound right since on the 17th of june Guderian was in Pontarlier near the swiss border and was about to move Northeast to attack the maginot line from the rear.Originally posted by MrPlow:
Von Mellenthin writes, in "Panzer Battles", "On 14 June the Maginot Line was penetrated south of Saarbrucken by the First Army . . . the Maginot defenses were breached in a few hours by an ordinary infantry attack, without any tank support whatever. The German infantry advanced under cover of a heavy air and artillery bonbardment in which lavish use was made of smoke shell. . . . a large number of positions had not been sited for all-around defense and were easy to attack from the blind side with grenades and flamethrowers."
As far as i can find no frontal attack was condocted against the maginot line durning the invation.
Yeah, all the real panzer action was up north with Fourth and Sixth German Armies attacking through Belgium, and 12th Army (with Guderian) attacking through Luxembourg.
About 10 Jun, Panzergruppe Guderian penetrated the Weygand Line and established bridgeheads on the Aisne and then headed south to Plateau de Langres and east behind the Maginot Line to encircle the French armies in Alsace & Lorraine, reaching as far as Pontarlier on 17 Jun.
Von Mellenthin was Chief of Staff of the 197th Infantry Division, 1st German Army, which assaulted the Maginot Line at Puttlinger, but it was never meant to be a major breakthrough. They had no tanks, or even motorized transport. His division had to perform 35 mile/day forced marches to link up with Guderian's forces on 22 Jun near Donon.
Ironically, the deficiencies of the Maginot Line came back to haunt the Germans as well.
In Nov 44, backed up to the German border, von Mellenthin comments, "The defenses of the Maginot Line were of little value to us as they faced the wrong way, but the underground shelters were useful."
Von Mellenthin was a career staff officer, ending the war as a Major General and chief of staff of 5th Panzer Army. I daresay the French history books describe it differently, and history, after all, is written by the winners.
"Panzer Battles", F. W. Von Mellenthin, 1956, University of Oklahoma Press (!?)
cf. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1491 http://www.ifrance.com/letunnel/Maginot/history.html
[This message has been edited by MrPlow (edited February 19, 2001).]
About 10 Jun, Panzergruppe Guderian penetrated the Weygand Line and established bridgeheads on the Aisne and then headed south to Plateau de Langres and east behind the Maginot Line to encircle the French armies in Alsace & Lorraine, reaching as far as Pontarlier on 17 Jun.
Von Mellenthin was Chief of Staff of the 197th Infantry Division, 1st German Army, which assaulted the Maginot Line at Puttlinger, but it was never meant to be a major breakthrough. They had no tanks, or even motorized transport. His division had to perform 35 mile/day forced marches to link up with Guderian's forces on 22 Jun near Donon.
Ironically, the deficiencies of the Maginot Line came back to haunt the Germans as well.
In Nov 44, backed up to the German border, von Mellenthin comments, "The defenses of the Maginot Line were of little value to us as they faced the wrong way, but the underground shelters were useful."
Von Mellenthin was a career staff officer, ending the war as a Major General and chief of staff of 5th Panzer Army. I daresay the French history books describe it differently, and history, after all, is written by the winners.
"Panzer Battles", F. W. Von Mellenthin, 1956, University of Oklahoma Press (!?)
cf. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1491 http://www.ifrance.com/letunnel/Maginot/history.html
[This message has been edited by MrPlow (edited February 19, 2001).]
I think this is true for both the winners and lossers of every nation.Originally posted by MrPlow:
I daresay the French history books describe it differently, and history, after all, is written by the winners.
Just Finnished reading Blitzkrieg by Len Deighton and he makes mintion of meyths told by both sides even to this day.
I think thats a problem a lot of people have about WWII, They see or read something and right away they are ready to take it at face value without doing more research on it, even do it took place only 60 years ago their are a lot of things that are still on clear and we may never know the truth about. Like if you read the post going on about panthers and tigers you can see how the hollywood meyth about them tanks can take hold of people.
The Germans attacked positions of the Maginot line in 1940, about 2 weeks after the invasion started.
The whole "Sichelschnitt" plan needed the French to keep their reserves behind the
M-line so they could not be used to attack the flanks of the assaulting German PanzerCorps or fill the gap the Panzers pulled deep into Allied defences.
For the same reason the German diplomats spoke to their allies about attacking Switzerland or the Maginot line. They knew that the Allies had their spies everywhere and so they would get the information and keep their reserves (30 divs?) behind the M-line and near the Swiss border.
The whole "Sichelschnitt" plan needed the French to keep their reserves behind the
M-line so they could not be used to attack the flanks of the assaulting German PanzerCorps or fill the gap the Panzers pulled deep into Allied defences.
For the same reason the German diplomats spoke to their allies about attacking Switzerland or the Maginot line. They knew that the Allies had their spies everywhere and so they would get the information and keep their reserves (30 divs?) behind the M-line and near the Swiss border.
If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
Drex, try:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1491/index.html
interesting read if you haven't found it yet...
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People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
-- George Orwell
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1491/index.html
interesting read if you haven't found it yet...
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People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
-- George Orwell
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
-- George Orwell
-- George Orwell
I believe the German assault also went well because the French positions weren't completely manned, perhaps being drawn off to other areas in need. Still it might make an interesting "What if" scenario. Take one fortress and fully man it and see if the Germans ( with first line troops and equipment) could take it.
Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"
The Maginot lines only week point was from the rear, the main reason is that the casemates were carefully sited to provide extensive fields of fire, that even included neighboring casemates, in case they should fall into enemy hands.Originally posted by Frank:
The Germans took Eben Emael, the strongest fortification in Europe. Why shouldn´t they have been able to conquer fortifications in the M-line?
On like Eben Emael paras could not land on top of them and nock out their guns. Also the maginot line had a lot more troops and guns then what Eben Emael had.
In truth if it was not for hitler the German army would have bye passed Eben Emael like they did the maginot line becouse the fort was not really imported to the over all plan.
One other thing just becouse Eben Emael was called the strongest fortification in Europe did not mean much becouse like a lot of forts constricted after WWI, they were designed with WWI tactics and warfere in mind and were useless in the new age of war that included tanks and fast moving armies.
Eben Emael had about 800 (?) soldiers in it. The fort guarded a very important road on which the Germans wanted to advance. It was absolutely important to take that fort. Taking it had no effects on the whole attck plan?
The Sichelschnittplan wanted the Allies to send their elite forces into Holland and Begium, then they should be seperated from their homeland by a massive flank attack.
By doing this you can reduce the effectivness of that elite forces and pull them into the sea. After finishing the firstline troops the secondline forces should be no problem.
This plan only worked because of some reasons:
the French beliefed the invasion plan of 1940 was the same as in 1914
the French thought Germany really used the old plan
the French kept their reserves behind the M-line
Only because all this happened the plan worked.
If you were attacked by the enemy and he stops at the very first fortification, would you send your best forces to beat the enemy back or would you send your second line reserves to improve the fortification?
The Sichelschnittplan wanted the Allies to send their elite forces into Holland and Begium, then they should be seperated from their homeland by a massive flank attack.
By doing this you can reduce the effectivness of that elite forces and pull them into the sea. After finishing the firstline troops the secondline forces should be no problem.
This plan only worked because of some reasons:
the French beliefed the invasion plan of 1940 was the same as in 1914
the French thought Germany really used the old plan
the French kept their reserves behind the M-line
Only because all this happened the plan worked.
If you were attacked by the enemy and he stops at the very first fortification, would you send your best forces to beat the enemy back or would you send your second line reserves to improve the fortification?
If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"