Rabaul is no longer a safe haven.

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:16 pm

Until 2.3 I was able to disband ships in port without fear of air raids. But I was rudely introduced to 2.3 when an unescorted flight of 32 B-17's just delivered bombs onto the flight decks of 3 of the 4 CVs that were sitting there. Even Kavieng is within range of B-17s so where can we go or how can we protect our ships? I had 30 planes up for cap(fatigue under 20) but they were pushed aside. Is there any protection against the B-17?

Feinder · Post by **Feinder** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:30 pm

"Is there any protection against the B-17?"

Nope.
-F-

Full Moon · Post by **Full Moon** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:38 pm

Feinder is right.

I've found that putting CAP with Zeroes againt B-17s is next thing to useless. Just put a lot of AA units in Rabaul and try to damage those B-17s. It takes forever to repair them. Level bombers with hight altitude won't hit any ships anyway. If they lower altitude, they'll get damages from AA in Rabaul and morale hit will be severe.

CapAndGown · Post by **CapAndGown** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 10:31 pm

If your fighters are not damaging his B-17's it is because your fatigue is too high. You cannot let your fatigue get above 30, and that means for the highest fatigued pilot, not the average squadron fatigue. For average squadron fatigue you should aim for something in the low 20's or high teens. You need to also anticipate the expected attack altitude and fly about 3000 feet higher. Finally, I would try to concentrate the fighters in order to have a lot of CAP up. With three squadrons of Zeros at 50% CAP you can have a little over 30 planes in the air. Numbers count in order to increase your odds of actually killing a B-17. Properly managed, your CAP can actually shoot down some B-17's. Some of the casualties may be on the way home. In one PBEM I am playing I have been fairly pleased with my CAP results against B-17's. And my opponent has been dismayed enough to switch over to night bombing, which is no better, since he is suffering higher op losses.

Also, even before 2.3 I would never disband a TF except in Truk. Ships in port are too tempting a target and very easy to hit. This is one of the major reasons you need to grab PM right away!

elcid · Post by **elcid** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 10:41 pm

Ships in port are not too easy to hit. Most raids hit none of them. But SOME raids seem to score well, and that is true. Look at the history of German major units! Most were damaged by air raids in port.

You can be pretty effective with the zero vs the B-17. I have turned away B-17 raids, shooting down, usually, one, and damaging many others. Still more often, I have seen them deliver for zero hits, after a vigorous defense. Use LOTS of zeros - over a hundred is nice - and use HIGH altitudes - ideally 3-5 thousand feet above the bombers (but you need several layers to insure you guess right). If you have many layers, the lower guys will have time to climb that, if they are alone, they will not. And keep watching fatigue - put FRESH units in your CAP!!!

Mike_B20 · Post by **Mike_B20** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 10:53 pm

I've been steadily playing through sc 17 as allies on historical difficulty.
Currently it is November 42 and I have all my B17's and Liberators in PM...must be over a hundred of them.
I've been flying them only on cloudy or clear days when their fatigue is below 10, steadily plinking away at Rabaul airfield which has seemed to be on 67 damage for ages.
I've yet to have one B17 turn around but have not been up against a carefully husbanded CAP as I'm sure I'd encounter versus a human opponent. Most of the time CAP is about 50 or so zeroes.
Only a few B17's have been shot down, the majority of those lost seem to crash land when returning damaged.

They do seem to be very tough and when used en masse do a lot of damage.

Cap Mandrake · Post by **Cap Mandrake** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 10:57 pm

Worr just sent a medium-sized raid of 17's (?20-25) and a bunch of Hudsons to bomb Rabaul....I had maybe 60 realtively fresh (<25 fatigue) Zeros on cap. The Hudsons were slaughtered but the 17's got through and scored 3 carrier hits! I lost 9 or 10 Zeros but I think some of the 17's went down on the trip home. Rabaul is definitely NOT safe for high value ships like CV's. I do like the port recon thing in 2.30 though.

There is always Truk

Hard Sarge · Post by **Hard Sarge** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 10:58 pm

Interesting, care to tell how to do so ?

put lots and lots of Zeros up, over 100 is nice, but rotate them, keep them fresh

what you got every Zero on the map in one hex ?

to keep 100 fresh Zeros in the air how many do you need on the ground ?

HARD_Sarge

Full Moon · Post by **Full Moon** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:12 pm

There is Shortland. I haven't gotten single air raid on ships on Shortland yet in my PBEM games. They sometimes send bombers to Rabaul or Kavieng but never to Shortland. It is possible for Allied player to designate Shortland for airfield or port attack. But they can't designate to attack ships parked in Shortland and it seems that AI never send bombers to attack ships in Shortland. Has anybody seen it?

Cap Mandrake · Post by **Cap Mandrake** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:22 pm

Shortland aint safe for CV's in port either...still in 17 range...I sent 1 squadron to bomb the port..they got throgh..though some were damaged..and got 2 hits on one CV

Hard Sarge · Post by **Hard Sarge** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:37 pm

Hi Full moon
vs the AI, I seen raids hit ships in harbor in Shortland all the time, just had a couple of nice runs into Buin this morning with my CV's

in fact around the first week in my game (scen 13) the AI pulled some BB either out of Shortland or they had just got to Shortland, and that day, I had a large raid go in and hit them, the 25's seemed to stay away from the BB's but nailed a few DD's pretty good, next day, seen them headed to another port

HARD_Sarge

Full Moon · Post by **Full Moon** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:50 pm

Hmm, it seems Allied players have great advantage with B-17s. At least Truk is out of range of them.

It is also possible for IJN player to hit ships parked at bases in Australia and New Caledonia from Rabaul. But Betties and Nells get slaughtered if Allied have heavy CAP on the bases and their morale drops to 10s-20s range. I usually fly them at 6,000 feet. How about B-17s? Do they also get that much morale hit after attacking ships?

Full Moon · Post by **Full Moon** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:16 am

Also, even before 2.3 I would never disband a TF except in Truk. Ships in port are too tempting a target and very easy to hit.

What does it mean? So, ships in a port which is disbanded from a TF can be attacked by Bombers which are set to port sttack? If so, I haven't seen the case yet.
I always thought that ships docked at a port can be attacked but not the ships disbanded from a TF.

Admiral DadMan · Post by **Admiral DadMan** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:30 am

Originally posted by cap_and_gown
...you need to grab PM right away!

... and pull out the spark plugs/distributor caps so they can't leave either.

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:44 am

Originally posted by Full Moon
[I always thought that ships docked at a port can be attacked but not the ships disbanded from a TF. [/B]

That's the way it used to be. I got caught flat-footed with 4 CVS disbanded in dock. 32 B-17s came in at 6000' and blew through my 30 rested zeros(at 10000') to get hits on 3 of the CVs! This has never happened to me before. Sure 100 planes on cap would be nice but its unrealistic and in most cases no possible for more than a day or two- even if you have the planes.

Full Moon · Post by **Full Moon** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:49 am

Originally posted by Drex
That's the way it used to be. I got caught flat-footed with 4 CVS disbanded in dock. 32 B-17s came in at 6000' and blew through my 30 rested zeros(at 10000') to get hits on 3 of the CVs! This has never happened to me before. Sure 100 planes on cap would be nice but its unrealistic and in most cases no possible for more than a day or two- even if you have the planes.

Thanks for crearing up.
BTW, was it a port attack or a naval attack?

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:12 am

It has to be a port attack. The CVs were disbanded in port.

Mike_B20 · Post by **Mike_B20** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:17 am

I can't believe there was no port attack by bombers in the nine months prior.
You guys must have breathed a huge sigh of relief every time you disbanded those CV TF's into another dimension for a breather.

Unless of course there was a chunky enemy surface TF nearby.

denisonh · Post by **denisonh** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 2:14 am

With recon flights giving info on the ships in port, it is easier to tell now, where before you had to guess.

Oleg Mastruko · Post by **Oleg Mastruko** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 2:26 am

Originally posted by Full Moon
There is Shortland. I haven't gotten single air raid on ships on Shortland yet in my PBEM games. They sometimes send bombers to Rabaul or Kavieng but never to Shortland. It is possible for Allied player to designate Shortland for airfield or port attack. But they can't designate to attack ships parked in Shortland and it seems that AI never send bombers to attack ships in Shortland. Has anybody seen it?

I received 5 bomb hits on my 3 CVs in Shortlands harbor, from the 15-some B17s.

Granted, I forgot to put the proper CAP up (my mistake) but some CAP was up and uber B17s still penetrated and scored 5 CV hits!

Why do you think I constantly repeat this game is incredibly hard from the Jap side

(Perhaps realistically so, but it's sometimes frustrating).

If only IJN would be able to put some serious port bombing raids, but alas, with Bettys and Nells...

O.