[FIXED B481] 6 hrs to prepare an Harrier???

[DoctorHaider]

In such cases I regret that there is no the "Kick this lazy ass airborne immediately" button in the UI.

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: DoctorHaider
Why do aircrafts that were marked as "Ready" in the Air Ops dialog begin rearm in the same configuration again when ordered to launch??? This is rather annoying when you launch a group of planes to eternally "form up" with part of the group rearming fr several hours on the ground/carrier.

This shouldn't happen. Can you mention a concrete example? (A save would be great).

[Adam106]

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Well, yes. Except I doubt Harriers were back then all-weather fighters with night capability - or if they were, they had no business at night to attend to anyway. Moreover, the Falklands war took place during the Austral winter... Your calculations are right, but should take into account the reality of the length of the day, dusk and dawn included, and be divided by 2 or by 3.

For instance, that website
http://www.solartopo.com/daylength.htm

Gives a day length under 9 hours in early May 1982. By 21st May, it's under 8h30, and by 31st May it's only 8 hours - which would mean 3 times less than a 24 hours basis for the calculations.

This is a fair point, and once we flip the switch on day/night affecting air ops (the data for this is already in the DBs), we will have to adjust the relevant ready times.

In scens up to the mid-late 80s, you will see _very_ quiet nights when this feature is applied.

Any idea on when you might flip this switch? I'm very keen to play with this.... Sooner rather than later would be great...

[mikmykWS]

Just waiting for our helmets to arrive[;)]


and then it dawn on everybody why surface navies exist[:)]

[Sinner6]

Hello Sunburn,

Though I don't have a save file, I believe I can point you to a youtube video that catches this on film anyway.

As a prospective customer, I was directed to take a look at the videos made by Baloogan as an example of gameplay.

I cant post a link because I am a new member.
The first video is of the air tutorial, entitled "COMMAND Episode 1 Part 1 Air Tutorial"

youtube.com/watch?v=ddhTe4skXdk&feature=share&list=PLgRuKky0mojZE3AmK_fEZ5ACpnvflHi-o

-At the 39:00 mark,Baloogan creates a SEAD mission and then populates it with planes from VF105, that are flagged as 'ready'.
-At the 58:15 mark, he then attempts to launch the mission (and does not immediately notice the ready time has changed). I noticed it immediately and it struck me as inexplicable based on the intervening gameplay. He shrugs this off as a mistake he has made in setting the planes to maintenance mode, but I see nothing in the video to suggest this is the case. But then, I wasn't playing. Perhaps some sort of misunderstanding when assigning planes to the mission?

Be assured, I'm still very interested in this title either way.

[RoryAndersonCDT]

ORIGINAL: Sinner6

Hello Sunburn,

Though I don't have a save file, I believe I can point you to a youtube video that catches this on film anyway.

As a prospective customer, I was directed to take a look at the videos made by Baloogan as an example of gameplay.

I cant post a link because I am a new member.
The first video is of the air tutorial, entitled "COMMAND Episode 1 Part 1 Air Tutorial"

youtube.com/watch?v=ddhTe4skXdk&feature=share&list=PLgRuKky0mojZE3AmK_fEZ5ACpnvflHi-o

-At the 39:00 mark,Baloogan creates a SEAD mission and then populates it with planes from VF105, that are flagged as 'ready'.
-At the 58:15 mark, he then attempts to launch the mission (and does not immediately notice the ready time has changed). I noticed it immediately and it struck me as inexplicable based on the intervening gameplay. He shrugs this off as a mistake he has made in setting the planes to maintenance mode, but I see nothing in the video to suggest this is the case. But then, I wasn't playing. Perhaps some sort of misunderstanding when assigning planes to the mission?

Be assured, I'm still very interested in this title either way.

I've taken a look at the video and I'm still not sure either way myself; I've been a little curious myself.

One thing I can do to help with is direct links to the spots you indicated in your post.

-At the 39:00 mark,Baloogan creates a SEAD mission and then populates it with planes from VF105, that are flagged as 'ready'.

-At the 58:15 mark, he then attempts to launch the mission (and does not immediately notice the ready time has changed). I noticed it immediately and it struck me as inexplicable based on the intervening gameplay.

I don't have the Autosaves from the episode tho, which I think are immeasurably helpful for the devs.

[Sinner6]

Thank You! I've enjoyed your videos, and appreciate the effort that you have put into it. I daresay they are a major factor in selling me on the simulation.

[opfor06]

In reality what the players are complaining about is scenario design. They want to be able to launch strikes on something that the beginning Order of Battle is not loaded for and it takes six hours to re-mission them. Less of an issue is how long it takes to reload an aircraft after it has returned to base after a mission. Command has several scenarios that are supposed to last for days. The reality is the two sides start so close to each other they are over in a couple of hours or less. This creates a situation where a 6 hour prep time means they will never fly in the time frame you need them. The scenario designer often has thought about how he wants the sides to be set up and balanced but sometimes they are just default load outs. Perhaps there should be an option for scenario design to allow the player to select load outs prior to starting with no time penalties.

[bsq]

ORIGINAL: Boochar

In reality what the players are complaining about is scenario design. They want to be able to launch strikes on something that the beginning Order of Battle is not loaded for and it takes six hours to re-mission them. Less of an issue is how long it takes to reload an aircraft after it has returned to base after a mission. Command has several scenarios that are supposed to last for days. The reality is the two sides start so close to each other they are over in a couple of hours or less. This creates a situation where a 6 hour prep time means they will never fly in the time frame you need them. The scenario designer often has thought about how he wants the sides to be set up and balanced but sometimes they are just default load outs. Perhaps there should be an option for scenario design to allow the player to select load outs prior to starting with no time penalties.

Or allow an extra 6 hours to this type of scenario, after all the Admiral or ACC does not just wake up and say 'I think we'll attack H2 today' - indeed the targeteers and the ATO builders will have been busy for hours and days before deciding what will happen on this particular day. The weapons will be prepped and the aircraft ready to launch. The extra 6 hours gives you the realistic time of getting the C2, ISR, EA and DCA in position for when the mud movers go in. Preparation time which IRL is vital.

Of course, this then raises another issue (doesn't it always). So the initial strike launches, 90 mins out, 90 mins back - comes home to re-arm and it still takes 6 hours - really what were the armourers doing all this time - coffee, CNN, volleyball.... IRL they will be preparing the next load, so now it should take less than 6 hours to perform a turnaround and get strike 2 in the air.

[Sinner6]

Boochar, I'm not sure I agree that what you describe is what occurred in the instance I have mentioned above. In short, Baloogan assigned 4 'ready' planes to a SEAD mission. They already had the correct load out. A few minutes later when he tries to launch them, they have reverted to a 6 hour ready time.
This was a canned tutorial scenario made by the devs.

I'm not seeing where he changed the state of the effected planes in any way, other than to add them to the mission. Are you saying you don't see any weird behavior in the video mentioned above?

[opfor06]

Sinner- there seems to be a bug that causes that behavior. If you launch the group and then assign the mission you do not see that behavior. The aircraft launch fine unless there is a mission.

bsq- the ground crews have already been working for hours getting the initial mission off the ground. I am not an expert on exactly what goes on but there are a lot of tasks that are required for the ordinance to be moved and readied. Other logistics like feeding the crews, rest plan, moving parts and equipment. They may work on getting down aircraft repaired, pull guard duty, pull other duty like settng up quarters etc.

I would say that some mission loadouts could be less than six hours. For instance iron bombs or rocket pods. Perhaps if the mission is keeping the same mission load out it should not be 6 hours either. Both things should be fairly easy program (easy for me to say).

[RoryAndersonCDT]

I've tried to recreate the issue; have not experienced the bug using the current patch. It certainly isn't desired behavior.

I think we are discussing two separate things: one is a software bug I've been unable to recreate; and the other is balancing the amount of time required for readying aircraft.

I do think that the software bug should be fixxed (and it seems to be currently, as I'm unable to recreate).

I also know that it does take an unexpected amount of time to prepare an aircraft. I'm happy with the way the ready times are balanced currently; possibly with a game mechanic for shortening the ready time in exchange for some trade offs.

[DoctorHaider]

[/quote]

This shouldn't happen. Can you mention a concrete example? (A save would be great).

I've attached the save. There are 4 Harriers with "Falklands Terror CAP" loadout and the Ready status on the Hermes CV currently. BUT if you launch them as group, only some Harriers actually launches, others begin the 6-hour cycle of rearming again.

This save is for the "Malvinas. The Pincer" beta-scenario.

[Dimitris]

Thanks a lot for that save. Finally got the opportunity to examine it at length, and it helped tremendously.

Okay, what is happening here is that as the 4 SHars are preparing to take off and are in the elevators, another one is just landing. The air boss is trying to clear out the runway as soon as possible, so he takes the initiative to send some of the aircraft back to the hangar.

Applied a number of modifications to the air boss AI to resolve this, and now it works much better. Watch the release notes of the upcoming Build 481.

Thanks!

[mrfeizhu]

in the book Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East
by Michael B. Oren they talked about the turn around time of the IDF's Air force and it was 30 minutes, and they trained for years to do this, but the jets were less complex than. SO i don't know if they can still do it in 30 minutes.

[Blu3wolf]

IDF F-16s could probably do a half hour turn around for a fighter sweep or BARCAP type mission. maybe an hour or two for a strike mission, as long as it wasnt the same pilots.

[StellarRat]

Someone mentioned that weapon programming took a sigificant amount of time. I wonder if running the exact same loadout should improve the turnaround time? It seems to me that throwing the same number and type of iron bombs on a jet with the same fusing as the previous sortie should be quicker than trying to change to laser bombs that need a designator pod and other changes to the configuration.

[bsq]

ORIGINAL: StellarRat

Someone mentioned that weapon programming took a sigificant amount of time. I wonder if running the exact same loadout should improve the turnaround time? It seems to me that throwing the same number and type of iron bombs on a jet with the same fusing as the previous sortie should be quicker than trying to change to laser bombs that need a designator pod and other changes to the configuration.

Subsequent reloads should be quicker, not only becuase the same parameters are used but also because the armourers etc are prepping loads whilst the prior mission is still in the air, therefore all that really needs to happen is for the weapons to be jacked up onto the pylons and the status checks to be run... Don't think this takes 6 hours, but thats IMO. Also any targeting pods/ecm etc should still be bolted to the aircraft, these dont need loading again. Also dumb bombs should take less time than smart weapons, but there you go.

[Dimitris]

Just as a reminder: The ready times cover a lot more than simply arming & fueling the aircraft.

[StellarRat]

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Just as a reminder: The ready times cover a lot more than simply arming & fueling the aircraft.

Surely hitting the same target again with the same loadout couldn't take nearly the prep time though, right?