Mapping Italy..

[Telumar]

.. can be a major PITA. Sometimes.[;)]

I thought i'd let you guys see what i'm working on: Mapping southern Italy at 2.5 km per hex (final aim: An 'Italy 43' scenario). The coastline is drawn, settlements along the coast are mapped and in the northern part of the map, the road net has been already drawn. The Anzio area is almost done, and right now i'm venturing into mapping the Calabrian peninsula. I'll do the southern peninsulas (Calabria, Puglia) first now and plan to work towards the north thereafter.

An overview:



And the almost finished area near Anzio - the Lepini Mountains:



Overall progress is rather slow due to the nature of the terrain. As sources i use a digitalized contemporary map for the road and rail net, here's an excerpt:



Additional sources for topography and elevations (very important for Italy) are google maps and google earth:




Suggestions, remarks, hints, critic and praise are always welcome. Maybe some of our Italian fellows might have something to add, though i don't know if Parmenio, Fabio and Damezzi are really from Italy.. I only know that JMass is, but he seems to have left TOAW.

[parmenio]

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Maybe some of our Italian fellows might have something to add, though i don't know if Parmenio, Fabio and Damezzi are really from Italy..

Can't speak for the other two but aside from a predilection for Chianti my roots are firmly in the UK.... [;)]

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: parmenio

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Maybe some of our Italian fellows might have something to add, though i don't know if Parmenio, Fabio and Damezzi are really from Italy..

Can't speak for the other two but aside from a predilection for Chianti my roots are firmly in the UK.... [;)]

Pity, but good taste for vine..


Been working ahead, here a part of the Calabrian "West Coast" with standard .PNG graphics for clarity:



Actually the mountain terrain should contain forest, too, but this is not possible in TOAW.

[sPzAbt653]

Nice work Telumar, I'm sure this will be awesome. What unit scale do you plan on using ?

Actually the mountain terrain should contain forest, too, but this is not possible in TOAW.

There is a file somewhere that allows you to change that. Rick (TPOO) did it in D21 for the Wilderness hexes. It may be that you can only change the name and graphic, not the actual attributes.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Nice work Telumar, I'm sure this will be awesome. What unit scale do you plan on using ?

Battalions, organised into Regiments/Brigades. But this is far in the future..
Luckily, the Italian Campaign is pretty good documented by/for both sides.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Actually the mountain terrain should contain forest, too, but this is not possible in TOAW.

There is a file somewhere that allows you to change that. Rick (TPOO) did it in D21 for the Wilderness hexes. It may be that you can only change the name and graphic, not the actual attributes.

Rick used a modified version of rough sandy terrain (tiles_r_sandy) for D21 iirc. There's an other way to mix terrain that won't go together in the editor: with the exported map .xml file - Bob did something with this in his SU41 scenario.
I will have to look into terrain modding anyway as some terrain is clearly not passable for motorized units, but only for foot units.

In the meantime, i've finished the northern part of Calabria - The La Sila mountains:



(using Jmass 3.4 png mod mixed with own files for clarity)
I've added ligth woods to all hills. This shall simulate the countless olive groves, vine and other plantations.

Next is the very southern tip of the Calabrian peninsula, the Aspromonte mountains, reaching from Reggio di Calabria to the southern end of above screenshot.

[Ruppich]

Looks good so far and promising!
Weitermachen der Herr!

[Telumar]

Thanks, Ruppich.

I think i'll have to delete some of the railroads in the Sila mountains as these were narrow gauge mountain railroads according to my information. Unsuitable for transport for military purpose, also probably not enough transport capacity in form of locomotives, waggons etc. I knew that the RR from Cosenza to San Giovanni in Fiore was such a narrow gauge RR, but i didn't yet know about the others.

[ogar]

This is looking very nice as you begin to fill in the pieces.  I'll be interested in how you're handling the abrupt changes in elevation and terrain within one hex ('up and down !,  up ! and down !!').  Looking at the earlier snap shots, I wonder if you will include all of Sicily or just the Messina 'tricorne' ?  Also, what are the U by the Passo S. Fili ?

It is very attactive, and you only have, what 77%, 82%, 85% of the map left to complete ?  Piece of cake !

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: ogar

I'll be interested in how you're handling the abrupt changes in elevation and terrain within one hex ('up and down !,  up ! and down !!').

Within one hex? Well, i would think that is a characteristic of the terrain type. Mountainous vs Hills vs Flat (open), sometimes 'flavored' with escarpments. Note that i don't use elevation (height) as an indicator for terrain type but the actual terrain. I.e. there is an area of hills within the central La Sila Mountains:



The terrain is almost the same height above the sea as the surrounding mountains. But it does not qualify for mountainous terrain:



Note that the Lago di Cecita as shown in google maps didn't exist yet at that time.

ORIGINAL: ogar
Looking at the earlier snap shots, I wonder if you will include all of Sicily or just the Messina 'tricorne' ?  Also, what are the U by the Passo S. Fili ?

Probably only Messina as the scenario shall depict the Invsion of Italy in September 43 and the ensuing battles until Winter 43. So, no Sicily.

The "U" symbolizes a railroad tunnel. Not that this can be simulated in TOAW, it's mere chrome. Also, who knows if the next version allows modelling RR tunnels...[;)] (hint, hint..)

ORIGINAL: ogar
It is very attactive, and you only have, what 77%, 82%, 85% of the map left to complete ?  Piece of cake !

[:D] yeah.. I estimate that it took me over two hours of mere 'worktime' to do the Sila mountains and their vicinity.

[Grognard]

I'll be very interested in your progress as I've been noodling around with my "Avalanche" scenario for some time now. I'll return to it in earnest after 3.5 debuts. I've had a dickens of a time finding contemporary ('43) (or any!!!) topo maps but I have collected a fair amount of operational maps - some are quite good and detailed. There will be quite a few escarpments. Of course my biggest map issue is where woods were......

BTW - 1 km/hex - company level - 6 hour turns. I firmly believe this is the best scale as the battlefield was comparitively small, the total OOB is about 9 divisions and at 6 hour turns we're looking at less than 30.

My biggest design issue is how to treat naval support fire. Without it, Clark (what a tool) re-embarks for sure...

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Grognard

I'll be very interested in your progress as I've been noodling around with my "Avalanche" scenario for some time now. I'll return to it in earnest after 3.5 debuts. I've had a dickens of a time finding contemporary ('43) (or any!!!) topo maps but I have collected a fair amount of operational maps - some are quite good and detailed. There will be quite a few escarpments. Of course my biggest map issue is where woods were......

BTW - 1 km/hex - company level - 6 hour turns. I firmly believe this is the best scale as the battlefield was comparitively small, the total OOB is about 9 divisions and at 6 hour turns we're looking at less than 30.

My biggest design issue is how to treat naval support fire. Without it, Clark (what a tool) re-embarks for sure...

You maybe want to look at Anzio 1km. I used multiple equipment pieces to simulate one ship. That worked pretty fine. Though it might be better to wait until 3.5 as it will offer a better naval combat engine and you would have to switch the setup if you use mine from Anzio under 3.4.

Initially i wanted to do a mere Avalanche/Salerno scenario, but the developments there were in part dependent from Monty's progress in the south. What if Monty would have been successfully delayed a bit more? Therefore i wanted to paint a bigger picture, hence the BIG map. Also, the map could be used for other scenarios too, like Operation Diadem/Buffalo. Btw, i already did a part of the Avalanche OOB at the battalion level some time back, if you like to compare it with your work, drop me a mail or a PM.

Of course my biggest map issue is where woods were.

Welcome.. indeed this is a problem! Luckily the Romans did most work for us.. [:D] and mountaineous terrain doesn't go together with forests in the TOAW map editor, so... okay this is a bit lame..
I'm leaning partially on the data i get from google earth, though there was quite some change since the 1940ies. What could help for your Avalanche scenario is to look at contemporary photos which you may find by a simple google search. You will also find photos of the Salerno battlefield, beaches etc. in this CGSC publication: http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/ ... l8/id/3987
Parlare italiano? The Italian Istituto Geografico Militare has some historical (1936) maps about this topic, i.e. this one: http://www.igmi.org/ancient/immagine.php?cod=12799 Though the scans are low res previews and it's a pain to search through their database, not only because it's in Italian. Try to look out for maps which begin with "CARTA FORESTALE DEL REGNO D'ITALIA... ". Starting page: http://www.igmi.org/ancient/.
I also found this one from 1972: http://www.mapcruzin.com/free-maps-them ... d_1972.jpg which however is only of limited use for small scale maps.

[Telumar]

You will also find photos of the Salerno battlefield, beaches etc. in this CGSC publication: http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/ ... l8/id/3987

Here for instance "Paestum beach" where US 36th ID landed. View towards Mount Soprano. Find the temple of Jupiter [;)]

[Telumar]

Used New Year's Day evening to finish the southern tip of Calabria (using again Classic Redux 2 - apologies for switching terrain graphics so often):

[Grognard]

Thank you so much for the terrain leads.

You maybe want to look at Anzio 1km. I used multiple equipment pieces to simulate one ship. That worked pretty fine. Though it might be better to wait until 3.5 as it will offer a better naval combat engine and you would have to switch the setup if you use mine from Anzio under 3.4.

This is one possibility I'm considering. A 122mm battery for a destoyer (+ or - depending on the # of tubes/ship), 152mm for a cruiser etc. Placement, support level, attachment, FO's, supply, and availability need to be addressed. Samuel Eliot Morrison would seem a good place to start. And, of course, I will wait to see what 3.5 offers.

Here for instance "Paestum beach" where US 36th ID landed. View towards Mount Soprano. Find the temple of Jupiter

I actually have this pic. BTW the Paestum ruins are on my (old, old, old) GDW "Avalanche" map - Great game and a Great source.
Also another very good source I have is "Operation Avalanche" by Des Hickey & Gus Smith. I recommend it highly.

Btw, i already did a part of the Avalanche OOB at the battalion level some time back, if you like to compare it with your work, drop me a mail or a PM.

Wilco - expect a progress report about a month or two after 3.5 comes out.....

What if Monty would have been successfully delayed a bit more?

Yes, - a TO for this one. How much time have we all spent waiting for XXX Corps?[;)]

Thanks again

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Grognard
Samuel Eliot Morrison would seem a good place to start.

Definitely. A must read, very informative.

ORIGINAL: Grognard
BTW the Paestum ruins are on my (old, old, old) GDW "Avalanche" map - Great game and a Great source.

Nice, i just looked at it at boardgamegeek.com. These days were before my time, however.

ORIGINAL: Grognard
Also another very good source I have is "Operation Avalanche" by Des Hickey & Gus Smith. I recommend it highly.

Thanks, that didn't yet come to my attention.[:)]

For all things Anglo-Saxon i used "The history of the Second World War; The Mediterranean and Middle East by C. J. Molony. (London : Her Majesty's stationery Office, 1973)" very extensively for Anzio and for this project. I don't own it personally, but they have this here in my home town's university bibliotheque.

ORIGINAL: Grognard

What if Monty would have been successfully delayed a bit more?

Yes, - a TO for this one. How much time have we all spent waiting for XXX Corps?

Lol..who did not?

If this project sees the light of the day somtime, the players will have to fight it out by themselves. Calabria as it looks now offers some excellent locations for delaying operations. And possibly unguarded ports for commando operations.

[Telumar]

Current state - made some progress into the "Basilicata":

[Telumar]

I'm still into this. After an excursion into OOB/TO&E things i'm back on the map. The Salentino peninsula - the rather featureless heel of the boot:

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Current state - made some progress into the "Basilicata":

Sehr gut Meister! Vorwaerts immer, rueckwaerts nimmer
Well done, my master and tutor.

Klink, Oberst
OT: Antietam meeting with 3 TOAW'ler was jolly good.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Klink, Oberst
OT: Antietam meeting with 3 TOAW'ler was jolly good.

Sehr gut. Fotos, stories, gossip? [:D]

[Telumar]

I think i need some advice, opinions here. See atatched screenshot from google maps. This is Puglia (or Apulia). Most of the terrain here looks like this and i think it's reasonable to assume it did look very similar in the 40ies (olive and fruit tree cultures), What terrain should i use, i'm really uncertain. Cropland - well, it's not actually cropland - or light woods (too few trees)? What's your opinion?