Scenario Operation Sling of David questions

[Sardaukar]

Hi,

Since I am completely new to this game (apart from playing Harpoon series a bit previously), I have some editing questions.

Since I am currently living in Israel, I have some interest to this scenario. To reflect more of my understanding about support to such strike, I edited scenario for myself following way:

- I added 4 Heron (Eitan) UAVs (reason: no way IAF would attempt such strike without UAV support, IMHO)
- 2 Gulfstream 500 ELINT planes (reason: ditto with ELINT)
- 2 EC-130H Compass Call ECM planes (reason: ditto with OECM)

But my main problem is with Air Superiority fighters assigned to scenario. As far as I know, IAF F-15C/D planes have gone through Baz-2000 (Baz Meshopar) upgrade, allowing them to use AMRAAM (and maybe/probably Derby missile). So, I'd want to change the Sparrows in scenario to AMRAAMS/Derby. Is this possible or requires database change?

Any ideas how I could edit the weapons loadout? Or would I need to change the planes? (latter kinda defeats the idea of scenario)

[MR_BURNS2]

You can make a request for a DB update for IDF/AF "Baz", but the Devs would probably like to see some more hard info about them, do you have more info about these upgrades?
Would be interesting to know, i bet some AC were upgraded to Python 5 capability as well.

[Sardaukar]

If I'd know, I would not tell. [:D] Israelis are very secretive about their weapon systems.

What is floating in public is things like this:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/isr ... 15s-01796/

Announced improvement of the F-15 A-D Eagles will include a “replacement of electronic war systems” and an “improvement in the ability to carry advanced bombs” via integration of new weapons. Presumably, Python 5 external link and Derby 4 external link air-air missile integration will be part of the process, if that isn’t already present from past modernizations. While the release wasn’t specific, JDAM compatibility is likely to be a priority and Lockheed’s JASSM/JSOW are also proving popular these days. Tamir Eshel of Defense Update external link writes us to add that integration of RAFAEL’s “Spice” external link, a kit similar to JDAM but improved via a combination of electro-optical and GPS guidance, will also be included.

This is actually the second modernization wave for the F-15 A-Ds, following close on the heels of the 1995-2001 Baz Meshopar (“Improved Eagle”) program. Israeli-Weapons.com notes that the Baz Meshopar package resembles the US Air Force (USAF) F-15 Multi-Stage Improvement Program, although it was implemented with a significant element of Israeli-built electronics and avionics integrated around the MIL-STD 1553 and MIL-STD 1760 data buses. The latter are required in order to add compatibility with GPS-guided weapons, and key elements of the F-15I Ra’am Strike Eagle variant include a modernized cockpit with Elbit multifunction displays, Elbit’s DASH (Display And Sight Helmet), a GPS-INS navigation system, AIM-120 AMRAAM and Python 4 missile external link capability, plus software upgrades delivered via the USAF’s Warner Robins Air Logistics Center avionics management directorate software division. The upgraded aircraft are known as Baz Meshopar (Improved Eagle) but are also referred to as the F-15 AUP (Avionics Upgrade Program).

And this is more concrete:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... -in-Poland

INTERNATIONAL DEFENSE REVIEW - NOVEMBER 01, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Improved Israeli F-15 AUP displayed in Poland
Grzegorz Holdanowicz

The Heyl Ha'avir (Israeli Air Force - IAF) publicly revealed its upgraded Boeing F-15D multirole fighters during the recent international air show in Radom, Poland. The upgraded aircraft are known as Baz Meshopar (Eagle Improved) but are also referred to as the F-15 AUP (Avionics Upgrade Program).

.....

In March 2001, the USAF's Warner Robins Air Logistics Center avionics management directorate software division confirmed that it had "delivered the final software operational flight program suite to the Israeli air force recently, finalizing a six-year effort to upgrade that country's F-15 fleet".

According to Dawn Etheredge, the USAF's IAF avionics upgrade primary program manager, the USAF engineers "provided hardware and software modifications and upgrades of the Israeli fleet to incorporate advanced medium-range air-to-air missile capability".

She also said: "The program demonstrated the level of confidence the IAF had in [Warner Robins'] ability to support them throughout the program... The modification has been supported via a two-phase integration approach". The first phase, she said, consisted of hardware and technical integration expertise, while Phase Two involved software developments.

According to the Warner Robins Air Logistics Center, by 2001 the AUP effort had been "in full development and implementation for the past six years and the IAF has modified 20% of their fleet and will soon have [AIM-120] AMRAAM [Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile] capability". The IAF team engineers and pilots participated in Baz Meshopar flight tests at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida.

The aircraft shown in Radom belonged to the Tel Nof-based Tayeset (squadrons) 106 and 133. One of the aircraft flew from Israel with the Rafael's AGM-142D Popeye air-to-ground TV/infrared- (IR-) guided missile and the latest variant of the IAI Elta's EL/L-8222 electronic countermeasures pod, that was installed on forward, port-side fuselage weapon station.

IDR was told that the upgrade will bring all IAF early-model F-15s up to the standard closely resembling the F-15I Ra'am interdiction variant. The upgrade process should be concluded by the end of 2004 and, so far, all F-15B/D two-seaters have been brought up to the Baz Meshopar standard, with new avionics and electronics integrated around the MIL-STD 1553/1760 databuses. Incorporation of that standard would simplify any further modifications as well as integration of new weapon systems.

The upgrade, apart from the new databus and modern digital avionics covers, also includes installation of three new multifunction displays provided by Elbit Systems. The aircraft had earlier been equipped with Elbit DASH (Display And Sight Helmet) multifunction display helmet systems, supporting the Rafael Python 4 air-to-air missiles.

Reliable Israeli defense industry sources told IDR that Rafael AGM-142 Popeye missiles have been used operationally by IAF F-15D crews for "more than five years". A single F-15 can carry two such missiles. Until now the F-4 Kurnass 2000 was the only confirmed IAF platform operating the AGM-142 family. The IAF has used Popeye missiles on its F-4s operationally for 10 years.

IDR was also told that the current variant of the AGM-142 is equipped with two different guidance systems: a Z-charge-coupled device TV with dual fields-of-view (4.5 x 3.4º and 1.6 x 1.2º) plus a Z-IR seeker seeing 4.4º and 1.5º. It is also capable of using two different warheads - either a 77kg (170 lb) penetrator or a 150kg (330 lb) blast-fragmentation type. Launched from low altitude (and aimed by a second aircraft), the AGM-142 can fly 45km, while release from high-altitude allows it to reach targets "located more than 70km away".

Considering that this was 10 years ago and they already then had 20% of planes upgraded according to article...

[Sardaukar]

Following picture looks like it is F-15I but it seems to be F-15D upgraded by Baz Meshopar prigram.

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/aa-mide ... /eagle.htm says following:

The serial 450 relates to USAF serial 80-0131 which means it was originally delivered to Israel back in august 1981. ( Peace Fox II)

And 133 Sqn doesn't use F-15I, they are used by 69 Sqn.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/110615698/Sma ... F-15-Eagle

says the same.

What are the weapons under the wing?

[Sardaukar]

http://books.google.com.mt/books?id=wBR ... ar&f=false

Book F-15 Eagle Engaged: The World's Most Successful Jet Fighter By Steve Davies, Doug Dildy

says that Elbit DASH and AIM-120 AMRAAM were included. By printing the book, all F-15B and D were converted and rest of F-15 were supposed to be converted by 2007.

[mikmykWS]

Hi

Thanks for the info. Request to update the units added. We'll take a look.

Mike

[ComDev]

Okay I'll look into this one, thanks [8D]
 
More photos and other links to confirm weapon fit would be much appreciated!

[ComDev]

Hm have not been able to find a single photo of Israeli F-15C/Ds carrying AMRAAMs so far. Guys?

[ComDev]

Except maybe here:
http://www.czechairspotters.com/photo.php?id=2179&author=38

[ComDev]

And here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hansmannn/6187142772/in/photostream/

[Sardaukar]

Very difficult to come up with more pics and info about this.

Some info about Baz Meshopar/Meshupar from modellers, sorry, no source:

- F-15C-Ds additional air-to-ground capability : installation of MER-10N bomb racks and datalink pod for guiding GBU-15. Possible use of bombs on CFT.
- integration of AIM-120C & Python IV on LAU-128 launch rail.

Apparently best source would be IAF magazine Betaon Hel ha-Avir, december 1998, page 18; december 2001, pages 18, 50

Btw,

IAF offial page gives AMRAAM as one of the weapons used in F-15 "Baz" (Falcon):

http://www.iaf.org.il/185-en/IAF.aspx

(note that they make distinction between it and F-15I "Ra'am" (Thunder), that is definitely capable using AMRAAM: http://www.iaf.org.il/187-en/IAF.aspx)

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f15_13.html

Pics (excellent xnir gallery), but not sure if they show AMRAAMS.

http://www.pbase.com/xnir/f15_eagle&page=all

[Sardaukar]

Are these AMRAAMS?:

http://img.defencetalk.com/pictures/dat ... 23-1sh.jpg
http://m3.i.pbase.com/o6/27/134727/1/80 ... 95201a.jpg
http://m6.i.pbase.com/o4/27/134727/1/66 ... 291301.jpg (these certainly are, but in what plane?)

[ComDev]

Added the following:
 
F-15C Eagle [Baz-2000] -- Israel (Air Force), 2004
F-15D Eagle [Baz-2000] -- Israel (Air Force), 2004

[MR_BURNS2]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Are these AMRAAMS?:

http://img.defencetalk.com/pictures/dat ... 23-1sh.jpg
http://m3.i.pbase.com/o6/27/134727/1/80 ... 95201a.jpg
http://m6.i.pbase.com/o4/27/134727/1/66 ... 291301.jpg (these certainly are, but in what plane?)

1st picture only heaters
2nd picture Sparrows
3rd, F-15 C/D, 2 Sparrows on port side and 1 Amraam starboard.

This one is interesting, 2 practice bombs, 2 Python 3 and 1 Python 4, and no tanks

This one has the same heater loadout and 3 Sparrows + 1 Amraam.
http://www.pbase.com/xnir/image/80992293

It looks as if they have a surplus of older missiles and fewer more modern missiles and try to balance that in their loadouts.

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: MR_BURNS2

It looks as if they have a surplus of older missiles and fewer more modern missiles and try to balance that in their loadouts.

It definitely makes sense for IDF/AF, since "local" air threat is so low that it can be easily dealt with using Sparrows in a mix. Plus I am thinking that those AIM-7s are getting very low on shelf-life, unlike newer AMRAAMS etc, so it is beneficial to load Sparrows "just in case we need to fire longer range". They will be useless by age alone in coming years.

Only countries that could give IDF/AF some trouble in Middle East are Egyptians, Jordanians, Saudis and maybe Turkey. Syrians are hopelessly outclassed and in civil war, Egyptians have peace treaty and not in good shape either, Jordanians are good but outclassed and have been in peace long time and Turkey does not have much interest to tangle with IDF/AF. And since Saudis are "in bed" with Israel nowadays against Iran, I cannot see that happen either.

[Sardaukar]

There is a joke now, since delays in F-35 program has caused IDF/AF to upgrade it's F-15 fleet further. They are wondering how to call further upgraded F-15 Baz Meshopar aka Improved Falcon aka Bazmesh, since it's already Improved. One suggestion is Baz Meshopar Meod = A Lot Improved Falcon [:D]