CW Trade - Convoy Nightmare

[Omnius]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

If the sender is neutral he can't provide convoys for build points or resources send. If he isn't neutral, than his convoys can be used to transport those resources if he allows to do so...

Centaur,
I found the CW using French some French convoy points without asking or getting permission, it just happened automatically. Rather frustrating since I had a French convoy chain from Hanoi set up during set up, only to have the British somehow abscond with some French convoy points along the way but not all of them. We really should be able to say yes or no to allowing allies to use our convoy points. It's not good that the program just abuses other country's convoy points without permission or reason.

Omnius

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

ORIGINAL: Centuur

If the sender is neutral he can't provide convoys for build points or resources send. If he isn't neutral, than his convoys can be used to transport those resources if he allows to do so...

Centaur,
I found the CW using French some French convoy points without asking or getting permission, it just happened automatically. Rather frustrating since I had a French convoy chain from Hanoi set up during set up, only to have the British somehow abscond with some French convoy points along the way but not all of them. We really should be able to say yes or no to allowing allies to use our convoy points. It's not good that the program just abuses other country's convoy points without permission or reason.

Omnius

I agree with you on this when multiplayer is going to be coded. In a two player game, one might skip this.

[Lucky13]

So... Whats the solution gonna be?

It's practically impossible to get the resources to the British isles without them cris-crossing and blocking eachothers CP's. Building the convoy lines up step by step doesn't work either since the stupid program cant keep it's hands off, messing EVERYTHING up again when you try to designate one final little Rhodesian resource again. [:@]

[paulderynck]

Go to WiF School and learn to use the interface.

[Omnius]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Go to WiF School and learn to use the interface.

pauldernyk,
Even being very proficient with the interface hasn't stopped the program from being Artificial Ignorance and screwing up a good convoy plan, thus forcing to always double check everything every turn as the CW player. However it is good to understand how to play the settings and how to properly set defaults, it does act better until something odd happens like a sea area losing all convoy points while the program hardly notices.

Omnius

[Omnius]

Shannon,
I made a few turns of progress and managed to clean up my first major CW convoy mess of the program routing resources through the Bay of Biscay when there were no Allied convoy points to do the trick.

However I just had a turn where I threw out the German submarine force in force and they managed to sink or abort all Allied convoy points from the Faeroes Gap. When I got to the Preliminary Production Phase I found 7 factories idle, some of the resources being shipped through the Faeroes Gap were properly reduced, I think about the number of CP's destroyed, but not aborted. I did find that there are still at least 7 resources being convoyed through the now devoid of convoy points Faeroes Gap.

So I decided to save the game as "Faeroes Gaffe" and am including a zipped attachment.

I decided to put on my beta testers hat and I clicked through all of the phases until I got to the actual Building Phase for Great Britain. I found that the program didn't change anything, when it actually should have, and allowed the illegal 7 resources to go through to factories in Great Britain through the empty of Allied convoy points Faeroes Gap. That took a good 15 or more minutes as I had to fake some moves to get past some phases. Plus now having to spend time writing up a bug report here on the forum.

I didn't change any convoy routing settings in my test run, just let things happen as they happened as far as CW convoy routing. In the Final Production Planning Phase I did look at the CW convoy routing again and counted out the number of resources being illegally convoyed through an empty Faeroes Gap. I found the same Not Magnificent Seven resources being routed to British factories while 7 factories actually stayed idle after losing their resources.

I'd say that the 7 factories that were idled almost correlates to the number of Allied convoy points lost, though I thought more were lost and the rest were aborted and I had no reserves since I'd been ignoring the submarine war since I was in the midst of the Jul/Aug turn and busy with Barbarossa.

The most frustrating thing I found was the British Guyana resource was now being routed to the factory in Australia. However it was first routed up the coasts of North America and Greenland, then down to the North Atlantic before going down past Spain and Africa and on the short route to Australia. That wasted 12 convoy points. I was surprised it didn't run the route up and down the coasts of Africa, India and the Netherlands East Indies to waste a few more. [:'(]

So instead of finishing up the rest of the turn today I'll wait and do it tomorrow since I have a major job rerouting CW resources to ensure no resources are routing through the Faeroes Gap and that I'm saving as many oil points as possible wherever I can. Good thing I have a stockpile of saved oil points in Great Britain that I can use to make up the loss of resources being convoyed this turn. I just hope the next turn when I reestablish convoy routing through the Faeroes Gap that I can more easily change from the saved oil points to non-oil resources.

I just cringe at thinking how much mischief the Artificial Ignorance is going to cause me as it tries to rethink convoy routing every time I click to recompute some other resource. Well, now to watch two more Harry Potter movies, numbers 5 & 6, wishing I had a magic wand that could fix the convoy routing problem in MWiF. It feels like Lord Voldemort is controlling the CW convoy routing. [:D]

Omnius

[Majorball68]

I don't have any issues with convoy points now. Set the British Guyana resource to idle frees up 12 convoy points. Set all the long distance convoy points to idle if you must. Set the shorter routes to defaults and make sure they are going to factories. If the resource point is not going to France because of French convoys being hi jacked by CW resources than use override setting for a turn and it will take back the convoy route. My only problem is with some resources next to enemy zoc with a friendly unit not being able to be used. Metz is one for France and one on the Italian border near the alps. At the start I was confused with the convoy system but now it seems simple. I must say they could put an non AI controlled button on the interface so a human player can manually do all his convoys but saying that it is a lot easier with AI doing it mist of the time.

[Omnius]

Majorball68,
While I'm also finding the interface a little easier to work with it's still a pain to have to double check and fix so many idiotic changes the program makes in our convoy routing. The turn before that British Guyana resource was running to a factory in Britain, not Australia. You also ignored my mention that no resource in Australia was being sent to that factory even though the turn before one was. While it's easier to work with the interface in 1.07 it's still a matter of having to fix so many computer generated stupid convoy routings.

Even when sending resources as defaults that doesn't mean that things are working properly, especially if it's allowing illegal convoying of resources when there aren't enough convoy points in a sea area to support that much.

Either you're not paying attention to your CW convoy routing to ensure it's not doing illegal production because default paths aren't being checked for legality each turn or you don't mind wasting time making so many changes. I think you're not paying good attention to routing each turn, as long as you see production without factories being idled you're clicking through.

As far as resources not being railed properly I think you should pay better attention to detail. While I have had a few instances of resources, like at Krivoi Rog that I captured as the Germans, not being railed back when I thought they should after really thinking it through after reading the rules I found the program is correct.

I suggest that if you're playing the CW and you have some successful Axis submarine warfare that reduces your convoy points in a sea area, or destroys or aborts all of them, check how many resources are still being illegally routed through that sea area. Then tell me how simple the convoy routing system is after you have to make major changes to keep things legit.

Omnius

[Majorball68]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Majorball68,
While I'm also finding the interface a little easier to work with it's still a pain to have to double check and fix so many idiotic changes the program makes in our convoy routing. The turn before that British Guyana resource was running to a factory in Britain, not Australia. You also ignored my mention that no resource in Australia was being sent to that factory even though the turn before one was. While it's easier to work with the interface in 1.07 it's still a matter of having to fix so many computer generated stupid convoy routings.

Even when sending resources as defaults that doesn't mean that things are working properly, especially if it's allowing illegal convoying of resources when there aren't enough convoy points in a sea area to support that much.

Either you're not paying attention to your CW convoy routing to ensure it's not doing illegal production because default paths aren't being checked for legality each turn or you don't mind wasting time making so many changes. I think you're not paying good attention to routing each turn, as long as you see production without factories being idled you're clicking through.

As far as resources not being railed properly I think you should pay better attention to detail. While I have had a few instances of resources, like at Krivoi Rog that I captured as the Germans, not being railed back when I thought they should after really thinking it through after reading the rules I found the program is correct.

I suggest that if you're playing the CW and you have some successful Axis submarine warfare that reduces your convoy points in a sea area, or destroys or aborts all of them, check how many resources are still being illegally routed through that sea area. Then tell me how simple the convoy routing system is after you have to make major changes to keep things legit.

Omnius

As far as resources not being routed correctly by rail the factory in Metz also has a resource in the same hex. Enemy ZOC shouldnt stop it being used if a friendly unit is in the hex. Or have I got this wrong?

I dont know specifically the issues you face with CP so I will have a look at your save. I am playing with 1.08.03 though.

I dont know how you manage to transport resources illegally thru sea zones where not enough CP are. This seems odd to me I will take more notice from now on see if I can find the same issue.

[Majorball68]

Omnius, I understand your issue with the phantom Convoy points via Faeroes Gap[:)]

[Omnius]

ORIGINAL: Majorball68

Omnius, I understand your issue with the phantom Convoy points via Faeroes Gap[:)]

Majorball68,
I was wondering considering your answer that it seemed like the only problem you thought I had was the wayward routing of the British Guyana resource to Australia.

It took some doing but I managed to get the CW legal for production. It took some doing to idle all non-oil resources and get all oil saved. Every time I idled one non-oil resource that was being convoyed when a non-oil resource from that continent could be used, another would replace it with just as stupid a convoy routing.

Then I found a new problem where you can reorganize with saved oil points sent to production and have those saved oil points not be used for oil reorganization but still usable for production.

Omnius

[Omnius]

I managed to get my CW production problem resolved, but it took a lot of work fixing the many screw-ups the program makes convoying resources to factories. I even managed to get non-oil resources on the same continent going to factories without wasting convoy points.

Each time I'd idle a non-oil resource being stupidly convoyed to a factory another would replace it with a similar stupid convoying of another resource. A real shame that the program is clueless about sending resources to factories without wasting convoy points. No reason why resources on the same continent as factories aren't the first to be sent to that factory, no the Artificial Ignorance has to always waste convoy points first.

Once I got the non-oil resources idled pretty much the program went wild sending oil to the factories. I finally got smart and began saving all oil. Then I got even smarter using my saved oil points in Britain to send to the now idled British factories. That way I could finally get resources on the same continent to factories on the same continent without wasting convoy points.

It took well over an hour to sort out the CW Preliminary Production Phase and make it all legal. No illegal shipping of resources to Britain with the Faeroes Gap devoid of Allied convoy points. A real shame that the program doesn't play traffic cop and do this for us automatically. A real shame that each time I'd idle one non-oil resource being illegally convoyed to Britain the program would stupidly recalculate another to take it's place with yet another illegal convoy routing.

I found it interesting that as Germany I didn't get any illegal convoying of the Finnish resource to Germany despite me forgetting to add an extra convoy point. I tried several times to get that extra resource across the Baltic before realizing I forgot to add an extra convoy point. In this case , with only one sea area involved, the program did do it's job to not allow me an illegal convoying of a resource to a factory.

I then proceeded and managed to find a new problem with using oil for reorganization and how the stupid program can't keep the production planning straight from the Preliminary Production Planning Phase to the Final Production Planning Phase. I'll detail the new problem in a new thread.

I'm really disappointed by the lack of fixing the production planning and saving of oil programming from Marinacci's ADG computer version. Production and oil are such crucial aspects of the game that this should have been one of the highest priorities to be fixed before release. A real shame that during beta testing these problems were ignored as beta testers decided to pass up using oil for reorganization and didn't thus test the feature that ended up being turned on for release. Oil reorganization makes oil have it's historically important feature, without it oil is just another mundane resource and saving oil points isn't so important.

I hope this important feature gets fixed soonest, I'm definitely going to slow down playing MWiF because I really hate having to fight the Artificial Ignorance as the CW player trying to get resource convoy routing correct when the program screws it up royally. It also tells me that the submarine warfare aspect is a total joke as the Germans can cut the convoy conga line yet resources keep on flowing through sea areas with no convoy points. Everything else in the game seems to be working quite well, only this feature causes us players nightmares.

Omnius

[Cad908]

Ominus,

I understand your frustration with Production Planning / Resource routing and appreciate the time you have spent to report these issues. However, I would like to make a couple of observations.

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Production and oil are such crucial aspects of the game that this should have been one of the highest priorities to be fixed before release. A real shame that during beta testing these problems were ignored as beta testers decided to pass up using oil for reorganization and didn't thus test the feature that ended up being turned on for release.

The beta testers did not ignore or miss this issue. Obviously my Non-Disclosure Agreement prevents me from disclosing specifics, but Production Planning went through several iterations and after each it was (including Oil Rules) thoroughly tested.

I hope this important feature gets fixed soonest, I'm definitely going to slow down playing MWiF because I really hate having to fight the Artificial Ignorance as the CW player trying to get resource convoy routing correct when the program screws it up royally. It also tells me that the submarine warfare aspect is a total joke as the Germans can cut the convoy conga line yet resources keep on flowing through sea areas with no convoy points. Everything else in the game seems to be working quite well, only this feature causes us players nightmares.

I agree, at present it is frustrating to use. As you discussed, for some powers (i.e. Germany, Japan) without long oversea pipelines, it works fine. The CW early in the game, and US later in the game when it want to move resources and build points around the globe, are a mess.

The Beta Testers were worried about this before release and Steve is aware of the current issues. As you noted the vast majority of the game works beautifully, but we need to resolve these last few issues.

-Rob

[Omnius]

Cad908,
I don't blame the beta testers but more the person who controlled this and made the incorrect decision to not fix these glaring problems before release. I just hope Steve finally gets the message that fixing production and saving oil is very crucial since so many customers want to use oil reorganization. I can see very little improvement over the Marinacci version for production convoy routing. I do see a little improvement in the last couple of new updates, however not enough to really stop this feature from being a nightmare as the CW player when something happens to change the number of convoy points in a sea area.

Omnius

At least I'm trying to clearly explain the problems I'm seeing and trying to upload files to help Steve fix this.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Cad908

Ominus,

I understand your frustration with Production Planning / Resource routing and appreciate the time you have spent to report these issues. However, I would like to make a couple of observations.

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Production and oil are such crucial aspects of the game that this should have been one of the highest priorities to be fixed before release. A real shame that during beta testing these problems were ignored as beta testers decided to pass up using oil for reorganization and didn't thus test the feature that ended up being turned on for release.

The beta testers did not ignore or miss this issue. Obviously my Non-Disclosure Agreement prevents me from disclosing specifics, but Production Planning went through several iterations and after each it was (including Oil Rules) thoroughly tested.

I hope this important feature gets fixed soonest, I'm definitely going to slow down playing MWiF because I really hate having to fight the Artificial Ignorance as the CW player trying to get resource convoy routing correct when the program screws it up royally. It also tells me that the submarine warfare aspect is a total joke as the Germans can cut the convoy conga line yet resources keep on flowing through sea areas with no convoy points. Everything else in the game seems to be working quite well, only this feature causes us players nightmares.

I agree, at present it is frustrating to use. As you discussed, for some powers (i.e. Germany, Japan) without long oversea pipelines, it works fine. The CW early in the game, and US later in the game when it want to move resources and build points around the globe, are a mess.

The Beta Testers were worried about this before release and Steve is aware of the current issues. As you noted the vast majority of the game works beautifully, but we need to resolve these last few issues.

-Rob

+1

[Cad908]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Cad908,
I don't blame the beta testers but more the person who controlled this and made the incorrect decision to not fix these glaring problems before release. I just hope Steve finally gets the message that fixing production and saving oil is very crucial since so many customers want to use oil reorganization. I can see very little improvement over the Marinacci version for production convoy routing. I do see a little improvement in the last couple of new updates, however not enough to really stop this feature from being a nightmare as the CW player when something happens to change the number of convoy points in a sea area.

Omnius

At least I'm trying to clearly explain the problems I'm seeing and trying to upload files to help Steve fix this.

Omnius,

All the help and feedback is greatly appreciated, and I hope nothing in my post suggested otherwise.

I have never played Marinacci's ADG version so really have no background to evaluate MWiF against it. I can tell you that a great deal of effort was spent on coding and testing Production Planning, which is why the fact that its not working as designed is so frustrating.

The release decision was made way above my level, but I think you have asked a fair question. Matrix and Steve made the determination several months before the release was announced based on where the game's development was and the business planning necessary prior to release, ie getting manuals printed, disks burned, warehousing, sales/marketing. A period of time (actually a hectic period of time) was allocated to finish the game's coding / testing up to the official release. Post-release support, updates and hotfixes were to follow and have been outstanding in my opinion. Holding the release unless the every obscure bug was quashed, all optional rules finished, the One Map Scenarios coded and the AI opponent programmed was simply unrealistic. (Perfection is an elusive goal) It was rather a nuanced decision, and while we (Steve & the Beta Testers) wanted the game more polished at release, it is still a marvelous accomplishment. I know the game will keep improving and then Net Play's implementation will see the come into its own.

Take care,

-Rob

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Cad908

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Cad908,
I don't blame the beta testers but more the person who controlled this and made the incorrect decision to not fix these glaring problems before release. I just hope Steve finally gets the message that fixing production and saving oil is very crucial since so many customers want to use oil reorganization. I can see very little improvement over the Marinacci version for production convoy routing. I do see a little improvement in the last couple of new updates, however not enough to really stop this feature from being a nightmare as the CW player when something happens to change the number of convoy points in a sea area.

Omnius

At least I'm trying to clearly explain the problems I'm seeing and trying to upload files to help Steve fix this.

Omnius,

All the help and feedback is greatly appreciated, and I hope nothing in my post suggested otherwise.

I have never played Marinacci's ADG version so really have no background to evaluate MWiF against it. I can tell you that a great deal of effort was spent on coding and testing Production Planning, which is why the fact that its not working as designed is so frustrating.

The release decision was made way above my level, but I think you have asked a fair question. Matrix and Steve made the determination several months before before the release was announced based on where the game's development was and the business planning necessary prior to release, ie getting manuals printed, disks burned, warehousing, sales/marketing. A period of time (actually a hectic period of time) was allocated to finish the game's coding / testing up to the official release. Post-release support, updates and hotfixes were to follow and have been outstanding in my opinion. Holding the release unless the every obscure bug was quashed, all optional rules finished, the One Map Scenarios coded and the AI opponent programmed was simply unrealistic. (Perfection is an elusive goal) It was rather a nuanced decision, and while we (Steve & the Beta Testers) wanted the game more polished at release, it is still a marvelous accomplishment. I know the game will keep improving and then Net Play's implementation will see the come into its own.

Take care,

-Rob

And I agree to this also. We really appreciate anybody helping us. This game seems a multiheaded monster at times. You cut off one head and there comes another two around. That must be very frustrated to the programmer too...

[Omnius]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

And I agree to this also. We really appreciate anybody helping us. This game seems a multiheaded monster at times. You cut off one head and there comes another two around. That must be very frustrated to the programmer too...

Centaur,
Steve has been reluctant to take the plunge and fix this programming nightmare. I can understand his reluctance, but now that paying customers are barking up that tree he'll have to bite the bullet and fix the oil and production program.

I keep thinking that giving the convoying programming a good lobotomy would help solve the problem quickly. Some suggest giving us a button to order Manual Control. That would be nice as long as the program does the land portion of the route, that it seems to do very well.

The biggest problem is the program thinks too much and too often. Every time we press that recomputed button it's like shooting craps hoping you don't roll snake eyes and crap out. Every time we exit and go back into the Production Planning screen the program keeps rethinking things. I wish Steve could stop the program from doing any convoy routing thinking when we enter that screen during any phase that aren't the main Preliminary and Final Production Planning Phases.

The other big problem is when we press the recomputed button to recomputed one resource to perhaps idle factory we have to fear the program creating a new resource link to that factory. It would be nice if the program only recomputed the one resource and factory we're currently working with.

I've been trying to put on my old beta tester hat when encountering problems so I can either provide a saved game file or a good description of the problem. It's hard to know if it's a known problem or not. I'm hoping that I can help get MWiF working properly sooner.

Omnius

[Majorball68]

Maybe having the ability to put factories on idle is better than putting a resource on idle or make it possible to do both. I am finding that I have to keep setting resources to idle until eventually there is none available to go to that factory and then I able to turn them back on one by one and route them to places I want them to go.

[lomyrin]

The desire for full manual control of the convoy and resource routing has been voiced off and on by the beta testers but the argument against it is that the trade agreements and possible losses due to search and seizure have to be complied with ahead of other routings. With full manual control that would no longer be true and the game could end up in violation of the rules by such manual routings.

Improvements are still needed though.