Question about armor clashes in BFTB

[vladn]

After I noticed in the BFTB demo the detailed structure of a tank company, I was wondering how does the game handle the tank-versus-tank encounters.
For example, the Panther had a notoriously strong front armor, but was vulnerable from sides and rear.
To further complicate simulation, the turret also had thick mantlet armor in the front and thinner armor on the sides/rear.
Also, when attacked from higher ground or strafed by fighter-bombers, the top armor was also a weak spot.

When simulating a head-on encounter in clear terrain between a standard US tank unit (a mix of 75 and 76 mm Shermans) and a German heavy tank unit (Panthers),
how will the US unit AI going to handle the situation?
Is the AI reaction dependent on the unit training level, for example if the unit is elite/veteran?

In games like "Battle Academy" and "Close Combat: Panthers in the Fog", in most cases the fight would end up badly for the US unit, unless it tried to flank its opponent.

Thanks,
Vlad

Oddball: The only way to keep them Tigers busy is to let them shoot holes in me!
("Kelly's Heroes")

[skarp]

Hi bug testing another issue I created a test scenario which put a british comy of shermans plus fireflies up against a panther coy. Both units had equal training etc and were in the elite category

"Preliminary results suggest that panthers cream shermans as might be expected; won 15 out of 18 games"

I didn't test it further [;)]

tm.asp?m=3455837&mpage=2&key=

[vladn]

Considering its specs, the Firefly should have a fighting change against the Panther thanks to the 17pdr gun.
It still wouldn't penetrate the Panther front hull armor, but it would work against the turret mantlet (from 200 meters, if I remember correctly).
The test results from the "Armored Cars" thread look right considering that the Firefly had the same armor protection as the standard Sherman, which was no match for the Panther's 75 mm L/71 gun.

About the Panther weak spots, I read an account about an Eastern Front battle, where a platoon of SU-85 Tank Destroyers concentrated their fire on a Panther tank and forced its crew to bail out due to sheer concussion effect.
After a sequence of 5 non-penetrating hits on the front armor plate, the Panther crew stumbled out of the vehicle otherwise intact.

Given the probable outcome of a head-on Sherman vs Panther company clash, should the AI decide to pull back the Sherman company to avoid being wiped out?
Would the halted/retreating mechanics be automatically activated after a number of knocked-out Allied vehicles?

As a side note, in "Close Combat: PITF" I noticed that tanks switched to HE projectiles against light tanks and armored vehicles, otherwise the AP ones would simply pass through the thin armor without exploding.
The Close Combat series does a fine job simulating the individual soldiers, but it could learn more from Command Ops about coordinating the platoon squads and vehicles on the battle map.

[jimcarravall]

ORIGINAL: vladn

After I noticed in the BFTB demo the detailed structure of a tank company, I was wondering how does the game handle the tank-versus-tank encounters.
For example, the Panther had a notoriously strong front armor, but was vulnerable from sides and rear.
To further complicate simulation, the turret also had thick mantlet armor in the front and thinner armor on the sides/rear.
Also, when attacked from higher ground or strafed by fighter-bombers, the top armor was also a weak spot.

When simulating a head-on encounter in clear terrain between a standard US tank unit (a mix of 75 and 76 mm Shermans) and a German heavy tank unit (Panthers),
how will the US unit AI going to handle the situation?
Is the AI reaction dependent on the unit training level, for example if the unit is elite/veteran?

In games like "Battle Academy" and "Close Combat: Panthers in the Fog", in most cases the fight would end up badly for the US unit, unless it tried to flank its opponent.

Thanks,
Vlad


Oddball: The only way to keep them Tigers busy is to let them shoot holes in me!
("Kelly's Heroes")

The developers are working on the issue as you question it.

First issue is that there are no "tank on tank" encounters, but instead, unit vs. unit encounters.

In determining success or failure in that type of encounter, the AI is designed to organize its formation to the optimum spread of individual platforms within a battle space for the formation's encounter with another like formation.

Once organized, combat algorithms take that into account, determines the most likely facing of individual platforms and angles of fire against them, the strength of weapons fire against those platforms, the terrain that intervenes between firing and target units, the quality of the light for the time of day and weather to support line of sight operations, the rate of fire and ammunition types fired, the morale, cohesion, aggression, and training of the firing and targeting units, and leadership qualities of each unit to determine the success or failure of an individual attack or defense.

Face to face on an airport tarmack, a Panther unit is more likely to defeat a Sherman unit, but only if all the other factors associated with battle (number of platforms, maneuver, ammunition, rate of fire, troop quality, leadership, tactics and techniques, and targeting variables) remain equal.

Not having certainty over outcomes based on the variables the designer and formation commander can choose to affect those outcomes lends to the richness of the game.

[skarp]

Well in my case the scenario was 60 hours long to allow for retreats and yes the Shermans did retreat but were mercilessly sent back into battle until all of of them or the panthers were dead. I thought the results reasonable enough even if the game as Jim points out doesn't really model on the tank v tank scale.

[vladn]

This combined arms approach used in Command Ops actually gives a good fighting chance to the US tank company.
Good to hear the developers are working to fix the over-powered armored cars problem, otherwise it would lead to some hard-to-believe AARs ("Greyhounds chasing away Panthers").

[vladn]

ORIGINAL: jimcarravallah
First issue is that there are no "tank on tank" encounters, but instead, unit vs. unit encounters.

In determining success or failure in that type of encounter, the AI is designed to organize its formation to the optimum spread of individual platforms within a battle space for the formation's encounter with another like formation.

Once organized, combat algorithms take that into account, determines the most likely facing of individual platforms and angles of fire against them, the strength of weapons fire against those platforms, the terrain that intervenes between firing and target units, the quality of the light for the time of day and weather to support line of sight operations, the rate of fire and ammunition types fired, the morale, cohesion, aggression, and training of the firing and targeting units, and leadership qualities of each unit to determine the success or failure of an individual attack or defense.

Face to face on an airport tarmack, a Panther unit is more likely to defeat a Sherman unit, but only if all the other factors associated with battle (number of platforms, maneuver, ammunition, rate of fire, troop quality, leadership, tactics and techniques, and targeting variables) remain equal.

Not having certainty over outcomes based on the variables the designer and formation commander can choose to affect those outcomes lends to the richness of the game.

Thank you for the details, I am new to Command Ops and I'm trying to figure out what tactics to use against units with better armor.

In a recent game I had an encounter with a German company equipped with Panther G, fortunately for me they charged against an entire Combat Command supported by a couple of TD platoons (both had the 90 mm M-36 GMC).
Since during the initial exchange of salvos I didn't notice any effect on the German company, I also fired several artillery concentrations on them from two M7 105 mm battalions.
I couldn't figure out the exact moment when the German casualties started to mount, but they were soon retreating with only 4 tanks from the initial 12.

Is there a way I can find out after a battle which of my units did most of the damage to the Panthers?
In future games I may not have such wealth of equipment at my disposal, so I'd like to find out the recommended number and type of necessary units to counter the German "big cats".

Is the "unit power" rating relevant in this case? For example, if the German tank company has a rating of 5, is it possible to counter it with a company with the same rating, regardless of known weaknesses of its equipment? Or I should still manouver for increased chance of side/rear shots?

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: vladn
Is there a way I can find out after a battle which of my units did most of the damage to the Panthers?

Not at the moment. More detailed AAR presentation, including details such as the above is a possibility.

ORIGINAL: vladn
In future games I may not have such wealth of equipment at my disposal, so I'd like to find out the recommended number and type of necessary units to counter the German "big cats".

Is the "unit power" rating relevant in this case? For example, if the German tank company has a rating of 5, is it possible to counter it with a company with the same rating, regardless of known weaknesses of its equipment? Or I should still manouver for increased chance of side/rear shots?

The Unit Power rating gives you an idea of the lethality of the weapons the unit has. You can use those ratings as a "heuristic": that is, an approximate way to assess how good is a that unit (or group of units) as a match-up. Nonetheless, don't be mislead by those ratings. As stated in the manual, they're most useful to assign priorities to artillery and CAS strikes. A good practice to handle the 'big cats' is to:

1) Engage them from the front with a force with AT capability in good cover (that is, a unit defending in good cover with a line formation and High ROF/Aggro settings).
2) Maneuver with another AT-capable force so to strike from a flank or the rear.

Artillery fires on it will increase suppression of the AFV crews, which will reduce significantly how often they can fire (and how effective those fires are). They will start getting substantial losses as they're forced to retreat (your troops get more chances of having a 'good shot' at a weak spot of German armour).

In less words: you need to use combined arms and maneuver, very much as the Germans when countering superior Soviet Armour in the Eastern Front in the period 1941-1942.

[nemo7]

Is there a way I can find out after a battle which of my units did most of the damage to the Panthers?

+1

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: vladn

So I'd like to find out the recommended number and type of necessary units to counter the German "big cats".

The problem with this question is its very hard to answer.

Unless its just a battle of attrition you are talking about, where you line up X amount of Sherman's and X amount of Panzer's spaced at 1000m in clear vis and clear terrain, and keep adding more until you get a win.
This can be done fairly easily in the scenario maker.

But during a game, the best way I have found to counter the Axis armour, is to try and get inside the AI's decision making process, and be where they want to be, before they get there.
Just as in real life the kind of terrain that was bad for tanks, is bad for tanks in game, and you can use this to your advantage, especially in the Battle of the Bulge scenarios.

The Panzer VI especially is best used as a stand off weapon, its tough armour, and long range deadly accurate (not yet but maybe after the patch) 88mm gun make it a formidable opponent.
So it stands to reason that what you need to do is try to close this gap by forcing it to engage at close range.
This involves getting ahead of it, to set up ambushes in bottleneck terrain. Roads running though forests, river crossings, reverse slopes of hills, villages, and towns, make excellent Panzer killing terrain.

An ideal situation would be a Tank destroyer Bn with infantry support, orders set to ambush, dug into a short strip of forest with a road running through it, on a foggy night, once the Panzers are engaged with the TD Bn, slip in another infantry unit behind it, to prevent it backing out.

Any type of terrain or weather, that forces the Panzers to close the range between you and them, and you sat in waiting for them with equipment that will punch through their armour at that range, will work reasonably well.

Knowing how many Sherman's will be destroyed before you get a Panzer, in a fair fight is not the way to do it.

Also just as in real life, aircraft are deadly to Panzers. If you get an air strike be sure to use it on a Panzer unit. Even if it doesn't get a kill, it totally destroys morale.